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[00:01:25] Andrew Michael: Hey, depen. Welcome to the show. 

[00:01:27] Dileepan Siva: Thanks so much having 

[00:01:28] Andrew Michael: me here. It's great to have you for the listeners. Depen is the founder and CEO of subscribe. Subscribe enables eCommerce merchants to leverage the true power of subscriptions to move bond, recurring transactions, to build long lost in customer relationships.

Prior to founding subscribe, depen has held roles at eBay, Twitter, and most recently, chief revenue officer at move web, which is acquired by limelight. So my first question for you is can you connect the dots? Like you've had various roles in your career? We're talking about just before the shows or some of, even in politics, what led you to [00:02:00] found ups?

[00:02:02] Dileepan Siva: So long story short, this is my fourth company, fourth startup. That is, um, first time founding, um, and every startup I've worked that has been in the B2B e-commerce space. So what's really interesting for me is how do you build the right tools that provide value to merchants? Um, so I've done that, you know, whether it's UN fulfillment and shipping, whether it's in the mobile optimization space and now on subs, Prior to being in technology.

I worked in the consumer goods industry. So early days I actually worked with Unilever and Pepsi and other big, big companies in their emerging market expansion in Africa, LATAM, uh, and, uh, and Asia, and as I was doing that work in retail, they were also thinking about, okay, What's happening in the online side.

And they were a bit late to that game because they saw the rise of so many B2C merchants and eCommerce companies. And these big brands had a retail channel, but did not have an online channel. [00:03:00] And so I first got my start looking in terms of launching their online channels and then got into working with the B2C companies directly.

So subscriptions, as you can think about it. One of the biggest ones here is replenishment and CPG companies are the bread and butter of how you think about this, whether that be a dollar shave club or an athletic greens. And so when I thought about launching my own company, I was like, wow, what would it, wouldn't it be interesting to build a company that did more than just manage subscriptions, but thought about it from a more fundamental standpoint of how do.

Really think about acquisition and also retention, which is part of our combo today. 

[00:03:39] Andrew Michael: Okay. Interesting. And give us a little bit of an overview about the product that you, what is the service that you offer your clients? How does it, what do a typical client come to you in how they use your service? 

[00:03:50] Dileepan Siva: Yeah, so what they do is right now for most commerce platforms, when an merchant is on a Shopify or a magenta or a big commerce for any of the solution, [00:04:00] Those solutions.

Don't give merchants the ability to power subscription. So you can sell something one time, but you have to use a separate solution or build it yourself, which most merchants choose not to do. Cause it's quite complicated. You have to use another solution in addition to the commerce platform like Shopify to power subscriptions.

So that's what we do. In a nutshell, we basically power subscriptions for merchants on Shopify and very soon other platforms. 

[00:04:30] Andrew Michael: Cool. And you mentioned then that though you're thinking about not just like subscription itself, but also then how does the acquisition side of things work and, um, how does that play into the platform that you built?

[00:04:41] Dileepan Siva: Yeah. So when we look at the landscape and when we built the company a couple of years ago and started out, we saw that where, where the industry is right now is you can do the basic things around managing your subscriptions. Like you can skip a shipment, you can update your, your, your payment [00:05:00] details.

You can update your address, you can add a product, but that's all what we would consider. Like the table stakes, the very basic, um, managing of a subs. Where merchants are now is okay. Cool. You've given me a solution to manage. I really wanna understand two things primarily. How do I keep the subscriber that I just acquired?

Right. They're now with me for a month, two months, three months. How do I retain that customer? And how do I find more customers like that customer? Because that customers a subscriber they're, they're, they're arguably more loyal, more bought into what I'm selling them and, or my brand as a merchant. How do I retain?

So it's really the product that we're building and continuing to build is more about how do we do those two things on the first it's it's providing a phenomenal subscriber experience. What does that all look like in terms of the, uh, when you log into the portal and you access your cyber experience and the [00:06:00] portal, how do you engage the customer through email and SMS it's then about retention?

So it's engagement, retention, and then acquiring folks that look like those individuals. 

[00:06:11] Andrew Michael: Cool. And, and the next question obviously follow up is how do you do that then? 

[00:06:15] Dileepan Siva: Yeah. So as I'll get an example on the retention side, right? So. What amazed me when we first started working in the industry and building our solution was talking to merchants.

Um, you know, very often, no matter what a merchant is selling, they will have a drop off in subscription. There'll be a churn around, say the third or fourth shipment. It's wild. Right? No matter you could be talking about a massive AOV average order value company, or a very small one selling, you know, whether it.

A razor or like a very expensive health and wellness. Good. There's always churn about that third or fourth month. Right? So we're like, okay, merchant. So what are you doing at that point? And we found that. They're like, that's actually [00:07:00] quite hard. One. We're not doing anything. And two, if we try to do something it's like custom coding and so we make it easy to send, for example, a free gift on that third or fourth shipment, or provide a discount that further incentivize loyalty and LTV.

For that subscriber. So that sounds like a very simple thing. It's actually not simple from a technical techno, um, a tech, uh, standpoint. And so that's one example of how we think about churn or retention. I'll give you another example. Cancellation flows in the data C industry. So when you click cancel subscription in the early days, very often, most solutions did not even collect data on why.

They were like, you click cancel you. Could you, you cancel, if you think about the experience on the New York times or Netflix or anyone else, there's actually a full cancellation flow where you're interacting with the brand saying, Hey, are you sure you wanted to cancel? Why are you [00:08:00] canceling? Oh, it's a cost issue.

Okay, great. If it's a cost issue, here's a discount that did not exist in the D to C space in eCommerce. Right. And so we built out and I'm giving you two very basic examples just to show you how. The the, it it's very much like low hanging fruit here in terms of what merchants are doing as it relates to churn and retention.

[00:08:23] Andrew Michael: Yeah. It's interesting. You mentioned sort of the month, three to four. I think this is something all very common, um, in SaaS and software businesses as well. Um, I think even at hot show we saw like in month three, there was definitely were the biggest, first 90 days was when the biggest drop off happen for the business.

And then you'd start to see like a really good, um, curve as. Flatten out, but the interesting that the same thing sort of translates to BTC, uh, brands. How did you go about sort of noticing this? Was this just something, uh, from servicing your customers? Like, do you have access to this data? 

[00:08:54] Dileepan Siva: Yeah. So we, we obviously, um, have access to our merchant data.

We obviously anonymize that we [00:09:00] don't publish this data elsewhere. It's for internally used to better our product and the service that we provide. And this is just looking at overall churn data. Right? So understanding, you know, the most common reasons of common reasons may, may differ by brand, but like timing does not.

Right. So it's wild, right? That SaaS D to C in these. Which you would consider wildly disparate industries. There's always the churn of the 90 game. Mark. What is that about? Why is that? I'll give you an example of one of our brands for Sigmatic, where, um, and I subscribe to many of our brands one, cause I love them, but also to like see how our own product works.

You gotta, you know, dog food, your own product, right? Yeah. So I start to our products using our service. I get the shipment. And then I think on the third of the fourth shipment for Sigmatic, um, I subscribe to one of their, their mushroom coffees. They sent me a protein powder. It just so happened. Andrew. At that point I was in the market for a protein powder.

Okay. Yeah. So they sent me a free gift right now. Now what they've done is they have [00:10:00] delighted me. Right? I opened this package. I'm not expecting anything except the part I bought. But at the third, fourth month, thereabouts, they send me a free gift. It happens to be, and I, and talking to the team there, what they did.

They, they know from their own data. If people buy this product, they're very likely to also buy this part. That's not complicated. It's not ML machine learning. It's like very simple, like, okay, they have the data of lofi. Right. But it's wild to me that, that kind of it enabling that action is not a standard thing that most merchants.

yeah. Right. Which is not it's and it's not complicated. Right. So for us, it's thinking about what are these enterprise? And we see this, this is actually very common when you're on a enterprise Shopify plus brand, many of these brands have built this custom with their agencies. They've like, okay, coded in this piece, how do we bring that same technology to the SMB?

And mid-market 

[00:10:59] Andrew Michael: two [00:11:00] questions. What did you say was mushroom. 

[00:11:04] Dileepan Siva: Or coffee, mushroom coffee. So foursigmatic is a mushroom coffee brand. What type of mushrooms? Um, mix lion made 

[00:11:12] Andrew Michael: not magic mushrooms. Yeah. No, 

[00:11:14] Dileepan Siva: not magic mushrooms, no mushroom. 

[00:11:19] Andrew Michael: So the next thing then as well is like I was thinking month three to four, you incentivizing by their giving discounts or a gift.

Do you think this. Like a solution to the problem. Uh, and why did you think this would be like the solution to the problem in the sense that like, in my mind, just trying to think, like, what would be the reasons for somebody wanting to turn one, three to four, uh, is typically, at least from the source, like space that they haven't really been onboarded effectively to the product.

So they haven't established that core value in getting what they want out of the product. So. Perhaps, maybe the reason GC space, they're just really, that's not the product that they want and they're not getting what they want out of it. So do you see a difference in sort of this [00:12:00] incentivization and um, if so, how, and if anything, maybe are you taking money off the table by offering discounts then to those that would've stuck around anyway.

[00:12:08] Dileepan Siva: Yeah. Great question. So I think what we described right now is the kind of the V1 of which, what a merchant can do. Ideally you spoke to it actually. What is the, what is the onboarding for a subscriber look like is really important, right? Mm-hmm . And very often when we look at the merchants and the email campaigns that they've set up, there are none, there's no onboarding campaign for arguably your most loyal customer.

Okay. Well, if you are not letting them know what value they have gotten by subscribing beyond the fact that just getting a product that product get subscribed to on, on a monthly or every third, 60 days. What is the, what is the, um, if you're not the value, why would you think the subscriber's not gonna churn at some point, right?

Yeah. The default could almost be that they would. Right. So [00:13:00] I described that, that, that quick action as almost like the first step, but if you were to think about a more robust program in subscription, you would have an onboarding flow that would communicate. Right. And learn like whether it's quiz or collect data so that when you are doing that quick action or what we call cohort action in that third or fourth month, it's actually relevant to what that customer or cohort wants.

So it might be a discount. It might be a free gift. It might be, uh, rewards points. Like there's a number of options. 

[00:13:35] Andrew Michael: Yeah. Cause I see like the, the free gift, like you mentioned, sort of the, the protein powder you in the market for it, perhaps you can order it again. I can see that helping as well with like net, uh, net retention as well and expansion for existing accounts as well, quite nicely.

Um, but yeah, just wondered what your, your thoughts were like, why you decided on this to be with maybe there's something that you've actually seen from the data. Um, The onboarding space. It's an interesting one. When you [00:14:00] think about it, like from a D two C perspective, I think in a software space, you're a little bit fortunate that you can, a lot of times measure the value that you're delivering your customers.

Uh, quite a little bit more practically. So talk about this one a lot, but Heidi Gibson from GoDaddy shared their story around like their, uh, website builder, and essentially in the early days, like they were trying to figure out like how to increase retention and what they found out was okay. People don't come to us to build websites.

They come to us to get bookings, to drive sales, to, uh, like book tickets or whatever for their customers. And they were fortunate that they could actually measure that action. So, uh, and then they started saying, okay, the people that do the most of these actions. What were they doing before? Oh, they connect their social accounts.

That should be part of our onboarding. Let's get everyone to do that in the DTC space. I think it's quite a lot more challenging, cuz like you mentioned, for example, like, uh Harry's or whatever, like you are getting your raises or you, uh, your phone, you can't really measure, has somebody [00:15:00] actually used it or have they got value out of it or so like what are your thoughts from that perspective?

Like when you're thinking, going into an activation program for companies now, how could they think. What are the actions they wanna be promoting and teaching their customers or their users to experience the most out their 

[00:15:16] Dileepan Siva: products? Yeah, it's, it's, it's a good question. Because in the D to C space, there is a digital component and then physical component, whereas in software, it's just primarily digital.

Correct. And so you have an opportunity, but also a challenge there. Right? And so what I see many brands do, but again, it's more, so enterprise is they are working with their fulfillment partners. To what does the unboxing packaging experience look like? So packaging is one thing in terms of brand, but also in the unboxing experience.

And again, to be quite clear, actually, we haven't even gone down this road. We plan to in the future, which is in our roadmap, is if you think about it for a physical good, the majority of the [00:16:00] experience is actually not engaging with the brand online. It's actually with the product in their home. Yeah. Or where they live.

Right. And so if that's the case, How do we leverage, for example, QR codes. Right around. That's a very, like now post pandemic, that's actually a very much more common way of interacting with the brand than it was prior, right. Through men using the rest. Yeah. And so when you think about packaging, when you think about a QR code, what are the ways in the unboxing experience that are really important?

That's what we're thinking through. And again, this is further revealed. It's a. Because I think 

[00:16:36] Andrew Michael: something now with you, like going through the start exercise. Well, because it is, it's like it's a parallel university. There's a lot of similarities, but there's a lot of things that differ, uh, from that perspective 

[00:16:47] Dileepan Siva: when you raise, let just what name, one more thing too, as well, Andrew, which is really important here.

So what's really, uh, interesting and specific. That's different around, um, physical goods. That's not [00:17:00] true for digital is consumption. Right. So right now, for example, when I, when one of our brands says we're gonna sell something on a 30, 60, 90 day basis, I'm assuming that every customer consumes something on a 30, 60, or 90 day frequency.

I'm not testing that. Right. I might have like my product and R and D team do that. Yeah. But how do I get more intelligent about what is the actual consumption pattern? Right. And we have something we're gonna be launching actually next in, in the coming quarter that we're super excited about that will actually get to understand from customers.

What is their consumption look like? So you can then tie a frequency to the consumption, cuz right now, what we're saying to, to subscribers is you have to buy this under 30, 60, 90, or buy it one time. There's no other option, which is a merchant centric way of viewing. Consumption of goods, right? Yeah. And with remote work and travel, [00:18:00] that is much less of the case.

[00:18:03] Andrew Michael: For sure. Yeah. That's interesting as well. And it goes into sort of like the move a little bit towards usage based, uh, pricing models as well, becoming, uh, a little bit more popular. I think when you mention that as well, I think I don't, is it Amazon that does it where you have the little buttons around your house and then you can like order things as you go along as you need them.

Yeah, 

[00:18:24] Dileepan Siva: so it didn't go anywhere, but it, I think you raised a really great point because that, to me stuck in my head ever since that was like first launched many years ago and then failed. Yeah, because. I think the potential around, um, the dash, if you, we don't know this, cause we don't have the data and, and, and Jeff Bezos, when he was at the company, we never release this data.

Yeah. Um, I order quite a few products from DSC merchants, but I order quite a, quite a few from Amazon. I think that's very common to do both Amazon and D to C direct. Right. I generally [00:19:00] am actually just going into my order history in. The Amazon app and I'm clicking buy it again. I'm not subscribing to that product.

Why? Because I travel for example. So the lotion that I buy from one of our brands major, I actually buy and I buy it again. Right. Mm-hmm I just go in and reorder that product. Now there's gonna be more that, that, that, that I think is there in the industry around thinking about being much more customer centric around, what does consumption look like and how do you.

[00:19:30] Andrew Michael: Yeah, absolutely. I think about it, like from my own personal consumption at home and whatever, there's a lot of things that I would love to just automate, but you just don't do because they're unpredictable in terms of when you can. And I think there's certain products it's okay to be able to automate them, because if you can have, if you have a surplus, it's okay.

But like, Groceries and your general groceries that you have on a weekly basis. I even try do it now. I get boxes. And then I end up like having leftover fruits to go to bed and stuff just because it's, you eat out one night and then you have the leftover [00:20:00] meal in the fridge and whatever, it's trying to figure that, that right balance.

But definitely an interesting challenge, I think, uh, For people. And I know there's probably a lot of people trying to solve at the moment. The other thing you mentioned as well is around frequency. And I think that's also like a big challenge when it comes to building a habit. Um, if we took a look as well, like Muriel had a great book called hooked and, uh, called hook and especially like focusing on, I think.

You need to have within 90 days, people need to be doing an action within 90 days for it to become a habit. And if that extends beyond that part, become very, very difficult for people to like create a secretion or use the product on a regular basis. Yeah. And I think Zillow was one of the ones that did a really interesting case on this, where.

They realize, okay, we sell houses like you don't buy a house every 90 days. So how do we get people to like establish us as the brand to go to when the next time they want to create a house? And one of the things they generated was this, uh, like house evaluation, house [00:21:00] valuation tool that you plug in your address, it sends you like a monthly update to whatever it is and what your evaluation of your houses.

And that's how they stay top of mind because okay. Like it's full. I bought a house now I wanna see. Am I making money on it? Am I losing money? Uh, what can I get for it? So next time I'm gonna come back to Zillow. And I think that's really an interesting thing. Also, perhaps you think about from a DTC perspective is like, what are these brands thinking about in terms of like saying top of mind, maybe more on a digital format that they can have that interaction more on a regular basis, but that it has somehow strong ties to their products that they create that relationship there on pilot.

Are you seeing any brands? Do you need something interesting like that? 

[00:21:38] Dileepan Siva: In terms of doing the work around. Um, so remind me, what part of that are you saying? So 

[00:21:45] Andrew Michael: what Zillow did in terms of like the home valuation, which is, is not really their core product, but it was just something that I added on their product to increase sort of the frequency of usage of their products.

[00:21:57] Dileepan Siva: Yeah. So the examples that I think of, so, so [00:22:00] Zillow is a very high average order value. Obviously it's a home, um, in this market, especially so. Where we see that more often is in similar high AOV. So I would say, you know, in the Casper sort of mattress type play, it's like, how are you layering in. More frequent purchases and or engagement through lower price goods, or other rewards or points.

Right. In other ways. So very often you'll find a company like away travel launch, not only a content arm, but launch, uh, um, a line of accessories that you can buy maybe as a box, right. Of like here as a travel box that you. You know, discovery around where I might go and what I might do. That's not as pricey as the luggage cause you not.

How often do you buy away luggage, right. Where you would buy a suitcase maybe every few years. Tops. Yeah. Right. So I think it's true for those types of companies in, in how they think about, um, 

[00:22:56] Andrew Michael: what is so special about away luggage. I've heard a lot about it. I've [00:23:00] never checked them out. Uh, cause you mentioned Casper as well.

I've, I've seen sort of the hype of being able to send a mattress and uh, but. I think 

[00:23:08] Dileepan Siva: they've done. They've done a way I think has done a good job. They've they've really gone into content, which I think has been great. It actually is a discovery tool around where to go in certain respects for, for their companies.

Casper. I know less about, um, I'm not a consumer either company, but I've that, and I think we've also gone for this. Very clear, sort of like gen Z millennial audience. Right? So they've targeted that audience in a different way. From when, you know, my parents were going to travel agents and I, you know, for me, I was a booking.com Expedia person, right?

Yeah. Self doing. And then the next, next iteration is for this generation is like, oh, I'm gonna a brand. And they sell luggage. But you know, imagine a world where I'm a, to me, to me, customer, to me, luggage never had a content. Right. Yeah. A way it has to now. [00:24:00] 

[00:24:01] Andrew Michael: Yeah. Times are changing. Uh, it, it, that was another interesting though.

When you mentioned sort of gen Z, um, from what you're seeing from your perspective, do you see sort of any differentiation when it comes to churn and retention from your customers, from like the different markets and that they're servicing? So I think like from a B2B place is very, very clear distinction.

SMBs and enterprises or SMB midmarket enterprise, you can see that in the churn data as well. Do you see any sort of specific segments, uh, and like the order value aside? Cause I think that might be like this difference between the enterprise and SMB sort of analogy. Do you see any sort of interesting segments where churn retention particularly high or retention is particularly high in individual seconds in the DTC?

[00:24:49] Dileepan Siva: Yeah, and we don't, I don't have the data to prove this yet, but here's the directional, um, sort of angle that I would go with this. Um, and this is based on partly [00:25:00] anecdotal, partly looking at directional data, which is, um, brands that own their cha. So as an example, many of our brands forced or choose to also do Amazon and not just B to.

Versus just selling D to C and being like, you can only buy this thing online from us directly. It's the only way you do it and have very strong brand affinity. They very often will have the lowest churn rates, irrespective of the vertical that they're in. Now I know a part of that just is gonna sound obvious.

Right. But it's really born out in what we're seeing in our merchant base, where. . If you have the ability to also buy an Amazon, you're gonna get some churn because they're going to, whatever channel's gonna make the most sense for them. It might be retail. I'm gonna buy oh, retail. Oh, didn't come in time.

The shipment from the D TOC, um, thing that I bought mm-hmm , I'm gonna go to the store and buy it or buy it from Amazon. Right? So there's a lot of churn just from like the, you have so many channels, you don't have the customer profile aligned. [00:26:00] Right? So some of our brands are like, no, the only way to buy this product is from us directly.

You can choose to do that, but then they're they, that they are spending a ton of money and a built over time, a very strong brand affinity to being like, this is what we do. 

[00:26:16] Andrew Michael: and they own the channel and they own the medium and the messaging and everything. That's correct. Yeah. That is interesting. I think that's one thing I don't know if we've actually touched much on this, on the show.

It's probably something we need to speak to a few more experts. So if anyone listening, you have any recommendations, let us know, but really is what, like the impact of brand is on churn retention. And, uh, because it's one of the things it's so hard to measure, uh, like it's, it's very, very subjective to a large degree.

And I think there are different measurement tools you can use, but. That's one to measure in terms of acquisition. I know there's like a lot of different tests and studies that people trying to do and, uh, brand affinity and stuff like that. But how that translates then to retention, I think is definitely another plan.

My assumption as well, would be similar to, to what you're seeing [00:27:00] in the data is that it does have a big impact, but it's just one of those things, very, very difficult to, to prove. Uh, 

[00:27:06] Dileepan Siva: that's right. 

[00:27:07] Andrew Michael: Let's uh, jump quickly as well. See, we're almost running up on time. Let's imagine a hypothetical scenario question.

Ask every guest you join a new company. Trainer retention is not doing well at all. At this company, the CEO comes to you and says you have 90 days to turn things around. You're in charge. What do you do the catches? You're not gonna tell me I'm gonna go speak to customers or look at data and start there.

You're just gonna pick something, a strategy or tactic that you've seen work at a previous company and run with it. Blindly hoping it works. And it applies not to this company. What would you do? 

[00:27:39] Dileepan Siva: So it does not include speaking to customers or looking at data. It's just like gut call. We're gonna go do this.

[00:27:45] Andrew Michael: It's something you've seen. That's been effective before. Yeah. 

[00:27:48] Dileepan Siva: Yeah. And this is the D TOC merchant, correct? 

[00:27:50] Andrew Michael: It can B2C merchant or it can B2B host, like 

[00:27:53] Dileepan Siva: just, uh, yep. Um, interesting. So, uh, I'm [00:28:00] gonna go very left field here. Um, what I've seen work? Well, this is actually true for B2C and B2B and I've, um, I've, I've executed this play before is I have done round tables with our highest, uh, revenue merchants, because very often you find in.

What, what people find the most compelling is meeting peers in their industry, because networking is not possible in these big conferences and definitely not in remote work. Right. And so very often what we find very helpful is, yeah, we can go here and host a dinner or do something, but if I can connect you with someone in your industry for potential job opportunity for either one of you down the road, super helpful and.

Right. And they know that we, then we, then that's not, that's not even about our product or our solutions. I'm not selling anything. Yeah. Right. I'm just trying to provide value. So for me, it's like where my mind go is how can I pro what's the quickest thing that I can execute on that [00:29:00] provides value out the gate that doesn't try to sell us.

[00:29:04] Andrew Michael: And that's why you're building a good relationship as well. Andhow goes back to sort of the brand, uh, think cuz in one way it comes back to the company and uh, they say shared that with you. Nice. Uh, what's one thing that you know today about China attention that you wish you knew when you got sort with your career.

[00:29:27] Dileepan Siva: It's uh, the psychology of it, meaning this, uh, It's almost like you have to be playing the long game. And as humans, we're not wired to play the long game. So unless you're building in systems to do it out the gate, you will lose. Right? Because we are wired to naturally be thinking acquisition. What's the new merchant.

What's the new merchant. What's the new merchant. So. It's funny, you you've probably seen this more than I have, right? Many of our merchants, um, at some point in time seeing this, um, with a cookie [00:30:00] issue with apple and, and Google next year were like, oh, we need to build in retention teams. Right. And the hard part with retention teams is that.

You have to always be thinking with a long term mindset and as humans were not wired that way. So unless from the top at the CEO executive and board level, people have of focus, it doesn't get done. So that to me is the biggest thing is that, is that to, I have to almost like think outside of my own head, right.

To be able to do the turn retention. If that makes sense. 

[00:30:33] Andrew Michael: No, it makes absolute sense. And definitely, I think it needs to come top down, have full alignments in the organization. But typically, unfortunately, most companies, like there comes a time when there's this oh, shit moment. Or somebody decides to like model out and see when our growth ceiling's gonna happen.

And then it's, oh, it's like six months from now. Like we better turn the shit around. Uh, so yeah. Uh, I can definitely agree and align with that as well. Something. It's a hard thing to do though. I think, especially when you're starting to build [00:31:00] out a business, because, uh, if you don't have that initial, like growth and acquisition to start, like retention, doesn't matter in the long run, but at the same time, you wanna make sure that you're balancing your efforts so that, uh, it doesn't come back to bite you in the end and you end up building a more long-term sustainable business too.

Um, well, did anyone it's been a pleasure hosting you today? Any, are there any final thoughts you wanna leave the listeners with like anything they should be aware of? Or how can they keep up the street with your. 

[00:31:25] Dileepan Siva: Um, you online IO we're on Twitter and LinkedIn as well. We post there quite often. Um, quite a bit of what we talked about is around retention because it's huge, huge topic for us in the subscription world.

Uh, and thank you for your work in this area, because at, to my last point, it's not intuitive many people. So, you know, having folks focus on this part of it in a long game is really, I. 

[00:31:49] Andrew Michael: Awesome. Yeah, we'll definitely make sure to leave all the links we mentioned and discussed during the show notes. If you wanna check that out, do so, uh, later, but thank you so much for joining and I wish you best of luck now going forward.[00:32:00] 

[00:32:00] Adelina Peltea: Thanks so much, Andrew. Take care. Cheers.