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[00:01:30] Andrew Michael: Hey, Kyle welcome to the show.

[00:01:32] Kyle Purcell: Hey, thanks, 

[00:01:33] Andrew Michael: Andrew. It's great to have you for the listeners. Carl is a senior lead of growth marketing at Shopify. The platform commerce is built on a mission to make commerce better for everyone prior to Shopify, Kyle was the VP of growth at Inman news and served as the operations and marketing manager at real Scouts.

So my first question for Carl is what has been your biggest learning since joining the team? 

[00:01:57] Kyle Purcell: Ooh. My biggest learning since joining the team at [00:02:00] Shopify is really around how to build positive, some results through working with cross-functional like partners. And that's really a focus of how we organize our work at Shopify.

And it's all collaborative working, growth marketers working hand in hand with growth engineers, data scientists, and growth designers. So it's been really an eyeopening experience and I've been able to see just how incredible that is when you bring different crafts together to solve hard problems.

[00:02:33] Andrew Michael: Yeah, that's super cool. I think obviously when you get to the size of Shopify and you have the scale and resources available, you can really have these specialties and functions supporting you and there's missions. What is the one thing that you think they're like Shopify really do well when it comes to collaboration and bringing together these various practices, like how do you make it work?

[00:02:52] Kyle Purcell: It's built into the fabric of how we look to our north star metrics and how we look to [00:03:00] get after those nurses. So our north star is focused around our active merchant base. So we're looking to grow the number of merchants that are using and finding success with Shopify and the growth team in particular.

The way that we drive towards that is we've created this system where we have. Distinct missions that are cross-functional in nature, that own a specific piece of that north star. So we have a mission focus around retention which is cross functional engineers, data scientists, marketers, growth product, all working together to solve.

Retention. We have a mission focused on activation with a mission focused on paid acquisition, organic growth. And then the one that I'm affiliated with is called channel acceleration. And our focus is on increasing the onsite experience or improving the onsite experience for visitors, making the page more relevant and doing a better job of.

[00:04:00] Giving the user, when they land on our marketing site, the context and the competence to get started with Shopify. 

[00:04:09] Andrew Michael: Very cool and interesting to see and hear how the team structured themselves. You mentioned that you have north star metric that you're going after as a team which is really to expand and grow that the customer base and the merchants.

How does that transcend the across the company? Is it a similar fashion? So you mentioned just you break yourselves up within the growth team, into the various segments, like retention and and how does that transcend to the rest of the company though? And something like retention, for example, is something that is impacted widely across the organization.

How do those teams then organize themselves outside of your growth team? Because Shopify, how many employees does Shopify have now currently? It's 

[00:04:45] Kyle Purcell: I want to say it's 40,000. 

[00:04:46] Andrew Michael: Yeah. So 

[00:04:48] Kyle Purcell: how it's doubled in size in the last year? So outside of the growth org, I actually don't have. Very much context because it's such a big Oregon and I'm relatively new at [00:05:00] the company.

I've been at Shopify for just over a year now. But I do know that, core to what it means to be at Shopify is to have incredible merchant empathy and to be looking at solving problems, solving big problems, infinite problems for our merchants and working to promote this idea that commerce should be available.

To everyone across the world, there shouldn't be some minimum threshold or capital required to start a business like now, or like the day's gone where you'd need to have $50,000 to spend on design and, a web dev to launch an e-commerce business. And at Shopify, everyone at the company sees the infinite game that we're playing to.

And aligns with that. I don't know specifically how they drive retention, but I do know that the growth org is very much focused on, on, [00:06:00] on taking that torch of, systematically improving your attention systematically, improving activation, systematically, improving equity. 

[00:06:09] Andrew Michael: That's very cool.

And I love sort of the focus on the mission. And you mentioned the word empathy like really being empathetic towards the goal and towards the mission. And definitely can see it's like something that. Never going to end in one sense. There's always going to be ways to improve that process and to give access, but ultimately if the focus is really on how are we enabling more and more people to get online, to start businesses, to sell ultimately throughout the organization, you're working towards the same goal.

And then there transcends into the different functions and roles that you have across the board. I want to actually go back a little bit in time to your experience at Inman, because I think that's where, and we had the discussion that a lot of your experience when it comes to gender and attention comes from maybe just give us a little bit of an overview.

What in the news is what your role was there? 

[00:06:54] Kyle Purcell: Sure. Yeah. So in the news is the leading trade publication in [00:07:00] residential real estate. So think of what Bloomberg is for finance in men is for residential real estate. Huge industry. Our leaders are real estate agents, brokers, real estate technologists.

So executives at Zillow and Redfin, I'm an open door. So all of these professionals coalesce around in men. And so we have a couple of products. One is a new site where we have staff writers. We have over 400 contributing writers that produce daily. To just keep the real estate industry informed and to also serve to better real estate agents and brokers craft.

The other area is in hosting events. And I joined Inman just after they've launched it paid subscription on their news program. And it was a really interesting time because we had identified. No strong signals that, Hey, we have product market fit on the subscription business. Our [00:08:00] readers are willing to pay, to get access to our editorial content.

And that really unlocked a different element to Inman's business model right before it was. Seasonal we'd have two big events a year. That's when the revenue would come in. And then we also had, ads and sponsorships on our online content. But with the subscription business now enter, like recurring revenue and that changed everything.

As well as. It exposed me at that time to the importance of, full life cycle marketing and thinking about the different levers, not just an acquisition, which tends to be the sexiest and like the most tangible to, to drive impact oh, it's exciting when you're driving more customer or it's exciting when you're driving more traffic.

It's exciting when you're seeing the customer number increase, but [00:09:00] also what is so important is being able to retain those customers and understand, what is the core value that you're delivering? What is the aha moment? How do you drive more people down dislike, ideal path to achieve the value that they sought out?

When they initially signed up and like that to me and to our team revealed itself as is the biggest lever and the most important metric that we can. 

[00:09:28] Andrew Michael: Yeah, obviously I think this is like a maturity cycle. That's pretty much any team goes through in the beginning. And like you said it's, you get excited by those initial logos and there's sec, the numbers are going up and extended.

Then slowly over time, you really start to see where the big opportunity is not really in acquiring new customers. Obviously that's an important component, but being able to retain, and then additionally, expand on those existing customers is where it's the biggest lever for growth, essentially the notion of the show.

I'm interested as well, because this is a very similar stage. We recently interviewed as well. Lou [00:10:00] Rosenfeld from Rosenfeld media. If we similarly organized as big events in the UX space and they're actually busy transitioning to part of their business becoming now a subscription business for themselves.

You mentioned that like you realized there was product market fit there, and there was good demand for payment of first subscription. Like. How were you going about understanding the new days? What were you doing to determine like the product market fit there and what were some of the things you did to get to that realization?

[00:10:29] Kyle Purcell: Yeah, so the actual launch of inven select, which is the subscription business that we're talking about predates my time in England, but as I understood it, that was like a pretty. Harrowing experience, right? All of a sudden deciding to cut off free access to the entire library of content and all new content being developed.

And instead put up a pay gate and ask for readers to subscribe and contribute. That was an interesting day. [00:11:00] Fortunately, we had a really strong group of core users. And for these users, we, before we launched the subscription program, we got them onboard with early access for annual subscriptions.

So we didn't have to worry about like any attrition for the first year. And we built a healthy base of users. And from that. We started to hit a really a two-pronged approach. One was around like awareness of this program. Different offers value props of like why you should subscribe to it and select it.

Wasn't just accessing the content. It was the community, it was discounts to our events. It was special access. As well as starting to figure out what is the. What is the right mix of free content and premium paid content? Because, we were very worried that we were just going to switch the light, and all of a sudden all of our content would be paid.

And we would just [00:12:00] see our, our organic search rankings, like tank. Yeah, exactly. Our traffic tank. And so it was very touch and go. So that was one aspect. And that was maintaining, like ensuring that we maintain like our traffic in our readership and that we just didn't like the bottom didn't fall out.

The second piece was really starting to understand the subscribers. Unfortunately, early on, we had a longer runway because we were focused on annual subscriptions. So getting people on board through discounted annual subscriptions, and then we also offered a monthly plan. And so the monthly. Was interesting because that offered us a quicker feedback, right?

Like we were able to look at new monthly subscribers and understand, trends and what to look for when, we saw early attrition, right? Like our retention curve was much different for the monthly subscription or it was there. Whereas for annual subscribers, we didn't know. Cause we kicked out [00:13:00] the first renewal by 12 months.

And so on the monthly. We identified a few really interesting levers on the acquisition, on the activation and on the attention from, yeah. 

[00:13:12] Andrew Michael: There's quite a few points to dive into here. I think one of the things that just struck me as well was when you mentioned that there was over 400 writers for a minute and realize that the size and scale of it, and I think.

In my mind, I was trying to think what are some of the other businesses that have taught to do this? And typically like a new sites, I think, is it New York times or one of the biggest applications does it, but New 

[00:13:35] Kyle Purcell: York times, Washington post, most of the big. 

[00:13:39] Andrew Michael: I see it almost as like in my mind, an assumption that like in men would be in a better position than most of these places because of the specific mish and focus, having that dedicated audience, specifically looking for one type of news where typically are the new sites that could be just hit and miss.

And what's interesting too. I know what cinches done this such a broad variety of [00:14:00] things. Do you think this played into any of that aspect? Did you see any of this, like the user feedback and some of the things that. 

[00:14:06] Kyle Purcell: Yeah, absolutely. At Inman, our top three channels were organic search, email and direct, which is that's a pretty sweet position to be in.

And we had a really incredible and healthy newsletter and like email subscriber base. When we looked at, how core retention. Fit in and like user retention fit in. It was quite interesting because we had two daily emails that were sent out every day with new content. We had weekly wrap-ups that were organized by topic and theme.

And then we had newsflash emails. So essentially most of our traffic was driven off of the. Email campaigns, or once in a while, we would get, ranked for a particular article in Google news. So we'd get a lot of like [00:15:00] unknown traffic. So folks who weren't necessarily familiar with Edmond, but that wasn't quite as interesting to us as it was as building a daily ritual and like a daily habit and correctly configuring email settings.

So that users were getting the right amount of calls. At the right time. That was what really drove like high, not high product usage, but the right product usage. Not everyone wants to receive two emails a day. So for the folks who do want to receive two emails a day who want to have full coverage and scope of everything it's published, like that's fantastic.

But if you're not someone who wants to receive two emails a day and you start receiving two emails a day, like we need to be able to identify that quickly and make it really easy to back off of that cadence. I touched on your question. Do you want to dig in a little bit more? 

[00:15:50] Andrew Michael: No, actually I do want to dig in a little bit more in terms of this last point that you made.

And we can probably spend our time focusing on the email aspect and bringing people back, [00:16:00] but definitely see how being in a good position there with the three main sources being on this year and direct an email and a big part of the business growing from there. Let's dive into the email specifically, because I think this is one of those ones when it comes to activation and retention that is in sauce and business, like we use our onboarding and activation emails and we try to pull out newsletters to bring things back, but.

Getting to a real level of sophistication where you understand your end users needs and their frequency and being able to meet those. I think it's a different ballgame. And it sounds like you spend a lot of time thinking about these challenges. So what was some of the early mistakes that you made when it came to the email that you set up and you can say are, can we could have avoided this and this cost us a bit, but this was the lesson, maybe one of those 

[00:16:49] Kyle Purcell: that's fantastic.

To be quite honest, we never really found impact [00:17:00] through email onboarding. So we had our daily emails, news emails, super clear, like what the value of those emails were and what the user would get when they click through. In addition to that, we attempted to have a. Eight week nurture campaign, where we basically onboarded users to the different facets of our content.

And maybe it was because the product wasn't complex. And so users didn't need that added context, or maybe we just missed the mark, but we never really saw measured lift in these onboarding programs aside from like the initial email that introduces the subscription that gives people the username in there.

Yeah. Subscription terms like those were super important, really high open rates, they're transactional emails. But like these other nurtured emails where we were trying to make sense for the new subscriber, what they were getting, didn't see, great [00:18:00] engagement. And when we ran AB tests where we removed those emails and we just had our daily news content and then those like initial, transactional emails, like we didn't see much of a change in.

The retention and like the, the usage from subscribers with the exception of two emails. And I'd love to talk about those two emails, because I felt like those were like diamonds. In our onboarding program, most of these emails were, like formatted, HTML hero image, just they're creative.

They were designed, we had two emails that were plain text emails. One was at three weeks and one was at six weeks. And what these emails did was they attempted to connect with our new subscribers on a very personal level. So they were coming from an individual on our team. They're coming from me and it was essentially the first email was like, Hey, thanks so much for subscribing.

We are so happy to have you. What could we be doing better?[00:19:00] Do you need help? And like that email, all replies came back to me in the beginning and people would reply back after three months, three weeks and say Hey, I can't log in. Or Hey I'm still getting, I am still getting. No two emails a day.

I wanted to unsubscribe, but like it's not working. And so all these like problems started coming back that seemed very core to, being successful with our subscription. And so it was an amazing experience to one get insight into what are these common problems. Okay. Log is logged in as a common problem, like duplicate like accounts as a common problem, right?

Like we would have users with multiple accounts that were feeding. Like newsletters into the same apple email box. And so we would triage those. I would triage those that attended the customer success. And like in doing that, we saw [00:20:00] monthly attrition. Just by getting on top of connecting with our users.

And then the Sikhs, the six week email was a very similar nature, plain text. Super personal, just asking what's your favorite part about the subscription? And one, we got really interesting insights and we were able to kind of form like relationships with power users and get testimonials. But two, it was another opportunity for people to be like my favorite part.

I still can't freaking get in. This thing sucks. It gives people like an outlet. Otherwise, if you don't do that, like they have nowhere to go. Their frustrations go unresolved. 

[00:20:40] Andrew Michael: Absolutely. I love that tonight. She reminded me of a time at hot charm where honcho in the beginning, when they launched David and the team put together a basic onboarding sequence for emails and at some point.

Somebody switched them off by accident. And at [00:21:00] least two, three months went by and nobody noticed that they were off. And then we went back in and we're like, oh shit, we've got an onboarding sequence. Like we need to fix this. And then we started looking at the numbers and the data. And I think obviously when it comes to onboarding and adoption there definitely is a lag because you don't see the results immediately.

You'll see them over time with the cohort that went through it. And that's something we did monitor, but initially, like you said, there was almost no impact on churn retention activation. Like everything pretty much stayed the same. And apart from one or two emails, like you just said as well. And those were like the personal ones that really made a difference and actually was one of the emails that I noticed from Hotjar that I absolutely loved.

And the reason why. I was running a company before Hotjar and we had run out of funding and we'd run out of money and savings. And as you do, like when things started to happen, we started to get billing requests from all the SaaS services that we were using. Your credit card has been declined.

And. Every one of them was he like bright [00:22:00] red notice that you'd get like a your crowd is planned. We'll cancel your service apart from Hotjar. And Hotjar, his message was directly from David was personal, a message. And all it said was like, Hey, Andrew we know like a business is busy things aren't always easy.

I couldn't remember the exact message, but it was like your card might have declined or there might be other reasons for it. I'm here if you ever need anything or I can't remember the exact wording was really like personal. Yeah. If you need help, just let us know we're here for you. But otherwise your pounce is going to be thinking.

And I just remember that vividly that message, because it was like, it was just such a fresh, like a breath of fresh air, just receiving a message like that from a company. And it wasn't like this bright red warning sign that I was getting. And actually that was one of again, like one of the more successful emails in terms of like stopping churn and being able to activate users because it was an inflection point that like, Hey.

Okay. I need to pause the accounts. I'm not doing projects on there was an opportunity then to interact with them, with the youth and because it was personal, it was [00:23:00] a great email 

[00:23:02] Kyle Purcell: and the team, they were showing empathy. They were like coming at it from like a. Aspect. 

[00:23:08] Andrew Michael: Yeah. I think a, w you wouldn't find that way as well at the end of the day, like people remember these experiences and they talk about them on podcasts.

That's awesome. But yeah, so very interesting. So you said, okay, in terms of aspect, you realized, like this was one area, the other thing you mentioned as well, then. You had you have different types of users that have different variance and frequency in which they want to receive emails. And how did you go about figuring that out?

Like how did you put together a system that enabled users to self-serve how frequent they want to interact with them in? 

[00:23:44] Kyle Purcell: So we made it really easy to adjust your settings. And this was like a. This was definitely a conversation that we had at admin. It was like, how easy do we want to make, personalizing your email cadence?

Because we knew we had [00:24:00] data that showed the more emails someone got, the more engagement we would drive with that person, because they're just more touchpoints. There were more opportunities for them to see a headline that was interesting to them. So making it really easy for someone to say, I don't want to receive a daily email.

I want to receive one email a week. Like it was very hard to do from Indian point of view because you're going from having five touchpoints Monday through Friday, plus weekly emails to having just like one weekly email and hoping that, the headline that we, choose for the subject line or that the content like is interesting enough to that user for them to engage with that one email.

So it was definitely a difficult balance to strike. We wanted to convey. Just the fact that Hey, we're producing so much content and this is a really like in real estate, it's important to have a jump on new information, that's going to help your clients. It's [00:25:00] going to help your, your business partners, make more informed decisions.

And in order to do that, you want to be subscribed to these newsletters, like specifically, newsflash emails and weekly digest. Yeah, it was tough. But at the end of the day, we decided that, we need to make customizing through email settings, very easy thing to do. And the way that we could try to influence, more selection is by communicating on the email settings page.

Just the value of receiving these like more frequent. 

[00:25:35] Andrew Michael: Yeah, I can definitely see the conflict there because in one way it's quite difficult to measure the impact as well, at the time of what the frequency and how it impacts churn and retention is day to day. Because ultimately you want to be seeing people coming back on a regular basis.

You want to see them getting regular value, but at the same time, you don't want to be. And knowing them to the point where that I can, I just don't want this news that in mind books anymore. And they ended up turning. So it's like a double-edged sword. Like the one way is you're just going to [00:26:00] piss them off because you see them too many emails and they don't want to have the subscription anymore or on the other side.

And I see this personally as well, I think I'm subscribed to business insider first couple of months. Like it was good. I was enjoying the content. And then back now, it just, obviously, I think also as you go in waves and cycles, when you busier and certain things like now, she's, I don't have time. I don't want to see those emails.

Starting to annoy me in my inbox and figuring out the right way, because in both sense, like I'm a churn risk now in both areas. Yeah, 

[00:26:28] Kyle Purcell: from BIS point of view, can they measure your engagement with their emails? The fact that you're not opening emails and like just proactively pull back a little bit, or can they take insight into your.

Your interests and like your reading patterns and okay what keywords or what page has Andrew been particularly interested in? And can we look at. Reveal bows in our fewer shots on goal and try to engage in and reengage him. It's an interesting opportunity for prescription 

[00:26:59] Andrew Michael: company like that.[00:27:00] 

I think they definitely do the letter a, so I've noticed that it's like when I read a couple of posts on Yeah, they ended up in my inbox. I can next year, the same topics and themes. The frequency, they haven't got that one looked down yet, for sure. Otherwise, literally last two stop sending them 

[00:27:15] Kyle Purcell: interest is a weird thing though, because just because you read a particular article doesn't mean you're necessarily interested in the like keywords that flash at the top of that article.

Like it's very nuanced and it's easy to miss as a publication in trying to like, guess what people are interested. 

[00:27:33] Andrew Michael: Have you seen it done most effective? 

[00:27:36] Kyle Purcell: That's a great question. 

[00:27:37] Andrew Michael: Because it is a very nuanced topic, an issue it's very subjective and difficult to apply a model to. Yeah. 

[00:27:46] Kyle Purcell: I don't know. I think that the best I've seen is morning brew and the fact that they have so many specialized newsletters. As a user you're able to opt in and you're able to choose, I think this like [00:28:00] this intentional, choosing of what you're interested in.

So Pinterest, Pinterest initial quiz when you're onboarding to use Pinterest, how they like explicitly asked you what you're interested in. I think that's a really key part because, just machine learning or AI determining what your interests. In my experience, a lot of times falls short and it doesn't really hit the mark.

There's like nuance human nuance, that machines 

[00:28:26] Andrew Michael: you can't get around. Yeah. And I think that being able to pick and choose, I think I've even seen it a couple of places where you can follow certain topics and that sort of then becomes into what you get in your own books and things later. Nice. As you actually running up on time.

So I want to ask you a question that I ask every guest. What's one thing that, today that you wish you knew when you got started with your career about generate attention.

[00:28:57] Kyle Purcell: Retention is the most important [00:29:00] lever to pull from a growth perspective. If you don't have strong retention as a company you're dead in the water, like all these companies focus on top level gross ads. And don't spend time on retention because it seems a little bit more nebulous, but that's the wrong approach at Inman.

Like when I first got exposed to our subscription product after about a year, I realized like, Hey, we're adding all of these new users, but our user base isn't growing at the rate that we would expect. And so we looked into our, our monthly churn numbers and they were at about 5%.

What that meant is that if our subscription at that point was say 40,000, we're turning out 2000 people every single month. So just to break, even we need to bring on 2000 new people and then anything above 2000 is our group. And so like when we realized that we shifted focus and we're like, okay what are the metrics [00:30:00] that we can.

Target on the retentions on how can we fix this problem? And to your point earlier, you said that it's not really a problem that you can fix with just metrics. And I largely agree with that cause it's more of a. Growth lever, but there are certain things that we experienced in cancellation safe flow or in involuntary churn that can be measured, that can be optimized.

And we saw a lot of success 

[00:30:23] Andrew Michael: with that. Absolutely. I think we mentioned this on the last episode is I'll just like basic things like credit cards. The typical credit card has expired. We have 24 months that essentially 5% of your user base has a credit card expiring every month. It's a risk for churn, right?

They're like, okay. So there's definitely a lot of those leavers that can be pulled and tricks. And talking about that actually is next question I want to ask. Let's imagine a hypothetical scenario. You join your company. General attention is not doing good at all. At this company, the CEO comes to you and says, Hey Kyle, you're in charge.

You need to fix this. You need to fix it foster three months. These gonna ask you, I'm [00:31:00] gonna ask you, what do you do? But the catches, you're not going to tell me I'm going to go and speak to customers. I'm going to look at the data and figure out the problem. You're just going to pick one tactic. One thing that you've seen be effective in the past that a company reducing Chen quick and run with that blindly hoping that it works.

What would you choose 

[00:31:17] Kyle Purcell: cancellation save? Yep. So my reason for choosing that is everyone who signs up for a product has a vision of them being successful with that product. And if they, at some point down the road, look to cancel in a lot of those cases. It's because the company didn't fulfill that vision.

And so if you're able to, through a strong, cancellation, safe approach, recalibrate, reconnect, and come up with a compromise to give that customer a path forward with your product to give them another shot. Like I've seen that be so successful.

People don't [00:32:00] want to cancel in a lot of cases, right? It's a cry for help. They have a core need that they want filled and they think that your product could fill it. Or at some point they did think that your product could fill it. So can you reset, compromise and re plan a new path forward with that user?

I think that is so important. 

[00:32:21] Andrew Michael: I love the way you phrase it, because like typically as well on the show I'd push against on this this topic being like, I think for short-term change. I think it's perfect because this question is, it's quite a, it's a trick question in itself, because would you say generally fast there's only limited number of effective methods in the service you mentioned is one of them.

But typically I think at this point, If somebody's actively made a decision to cancel and use your product, the problem they have with your product probably happened months ago or a weeks ago. And this is just like the final store that's got the there. So while they can be effective, they're not going to be as effective of trying to figure out early on in the lifecycle, on the journey, like what's going from, why are we missing on like the [00:33:00] value prop message and stuff.

But yeah, I liked the way that you frame that from the different perspective, in the sense that. Yeah, pro didn't live on a promise, but they did want to come to them in the beginning, trying to figure out the compromise of like, how can we still deliver on that promise, but potentially not lose them.

And yeah, totally. There's 

[00:33:17] Kyle Purcell: a glimmer of hope. There's always a glimmer of hope. It's 

[00:33:20] Andrew Michael: Exactly. Nice. How well come in, it's been a pleasure chatting to you today. And I went to ask like a question is there any sort of final thoughts you want to leave the listeners with anything they should be aware of?

Or how can they be kept up to speed with your work?

[00:33:38] Kyle Purcell: I guess the last thing that I'd love to leave with your listeners is, and I think I'm preaching to the choir here, but it's not just important to. Focus on the pretension and like use that as a key growth lever, but you need to go beyond that as a growth professional growth marketer, and you need to like really champion that idea [00:34:00] across the board.

You need to share with other XFN like cross-functional crafts, why it's important, why churn is important, why retention is important. If you can do that successfully at a company, the company is better for it. It's more holistic focus, a more wholesome focus. And if there's one thing that I would leave your readers with, or your listeners with it's that, but it's not enough to just know it.

[00:34:27] Andrew Michael: Yeah, I love that. Very cool. Thanks so much for joining today, Carl. I really appreciate it and I wish you best in the back now going into 2020. 

[00:34:34] Kyle Purcell: Yeah. Likewise. Thanks so much. 

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