Andrew Michael: [00:00:00] Hi Panos. Welcome to the show.

Panos Siozos: [00:00:02] Hi, thanks for having me.

Andrew Michael: [00:00:04] It's a pleasure for the listeners. Panos is the CEO and cofounder of learn worlds and e-learning company that provides a white label SaaS platform for professional trainers, organizations, and businesses to create their own personally branded online school prior to learn worlds.

Pandas was a science and policy advisor to the European parliament and a researcher at the department of informatics at the Aristotle university of Thesalloniki. So my first question for you upon us is. What was, what has been your biggest challenge in taking the leap from a job in education and parliament to starting your own company?

Panos Siozos: [00:00:36] Well, it's, it's always strange to, to taste your own medicine. I have worked a lot in there, like theory about learning and they have loads workload about the theory of innovation and how we can foster innovation and how we can create startups. But when you tried yourself, that's when you really things see things happening and it's becoming very interesting.

I think they're the biggest transition. They're the biggest. Obstacle for [00:01:00] us was, as engineers. We always thought about that. We, you just build it and people will come. If you just build the best platform, people will start flocking to what you have to offer. But this is not how real life works or not something that we have to learn in the first year when we first started doing our first MVPs and trying to sign up customers.

We actually realized that we need to do marketing and we need to learn how to put out our value proposition and how to present the platform, how to pitch that was, that was the, I guess, a major discovery for us. But after that things started becoming quite a quite easy. Everybody presenting the platform, signing up new customers, getting feedback from customers and improving, listening to the market and listening to the customers.

I guess that's a, that's the best thing that you can do once you have a product.

Andrew Michael: [00:01:47] Very nice and interesting is all that perspective coming from an engineer, like really undervaluing the importance and effectiveness of marketing. So in those days then you got started, you launched the platform, you realized needed [00:02:00] marketing. Like where did you turn to, like, what was some of the ideas that you came up with a BME to try and attract people to the platform?

Panos Siozos: [00:02:07] We did everything manually, lots of outreach, trying to convince people, trying to get, people to like to test the platform we were trying to find who would be online training one. When he first started online training, wasn't such a big thing. Like people creating their platforms. I guess we were almost the first platforms trying to do retail. E-learning like creating a white label platform and selling courses under your own website. People back then we're mostly used to dealing with online places like Udemy or Coursera and all those big MOOCs.

So people were wondering like, why should they create my own online tool? Why should I, should I have my own website and know to try to sell through a marketplace? And I guess it's the same kind of a discussion that we had now comparing Amazon to Shopify. Sure. Yes, you can go [00:03:00] to a marketplace and they are, you can be your courses or your digital products or your physical products can be sold alone, thousands and thousands of other merchants.

Or you can create your very own store. Instead of being in the supermarket. You create your very own boutique, your very own delicatessen. But you are the owner of your data, of your audience, of your, everything that happens within your school, you can promote your run. And that's the difficult argument that we're trying to do back then.

So we're trying to approach people who were already, content creators those who had videos, who had courses, trainers, and trying to convince them that online courses are the place. Part of the future, but also being the owner of your own outlet. The owner of your own online shool way to go forward.

So that took some convincing, but increasingly the test started it, it started becoming more and more easy. And today it's obvious, like everybody wants to do their own online school in [00:04:00] control of their data of their students manage their own community. And, and be able to monetize their following, whatever, wherever these may come from, from YouTube, from podcasts and from an existing client entail

Andrew Michael: [00:04:11]  Absolutely. I think both sides have a pros and cons as well, like you said, with the marketplace. And I think probably they could both live in existence. You could be on a marketplace, but also have your own school and then just focus on mostly driving your own traffic to your school and then taking advantage of other platforms like Udemy.

So I totally

Panos Siozos: [00:04:30] agree. They can definitely work work side by side by side. And, it can be a great thing. The acquisition channel, like being in a, in a marketplace. but we, we see what we see from our customers at least is not there the most, the high value products and always the best version of their product and the, and the premium version.

They want to keep control of it. So you don't want to hand this over to somebody else. So you use the other channels, any channel that is available to you, and then you bring people over to where you are, the owner [00:05:00] of the, of the user experience. You are the owner of data. You are the, the, the, the controller of the, or of your audience.

Andrew Michael: [00:05:08] Absolutely. And I definitely, like, I think from a business perspective, time, you start building anything on top of anybody else's platform where you don't control the audience. So the data it's a very dangerous position to be in because you get left stranded. Like if policies change. A feature things, update or algorithms, change.

And then you stuck at the mercy of the company that you're on their platforms definitely makes total sense the moment. And that you're gaining now as well, talking about momentum as well. I think definitely like now in the light. So, COVID19, we're now in, June. and obviously I think definitely there's.  In a huge uptick in the learning space and a lot of companies and businesses really now wanting to get online and start to, take advantage of the eLearning, but also trying to sort of, adjust and change their own business models to be able to still [00:06:00] survive. are you seeing this at learn worlds and, like what are some of the trends you're seeing in that now in this, headwinds from COVID-19.

Panos Siozos: [00:06:08] We're definitely seeing that. obviously that's a, that's a huge, that's a one in a century event. we really hope that all these things will go away very, very soon and the people will go back to their old habits. but we have been very blessed to have been able to help thousands of people over the past three months to salvage their business, to transition online.

If you cannot do training online right now, In many cases, you cannot do training. So there's lots of people that didn't have any other options. Obviously, those that already had an online school, I had the first movers advantage and they were able to multiply their own lines in just a few weeks. The first number that we were seeing.

From February, the real uptick in the interest that we saw was around the 15th of March. That was like a compost date. They are funneled, [00:07:00] tripled, just the date. so we've seen that our existing customers sold. I mean they're SES their gross merchandise value. The number of sales that no, they had increased by more than 120% just in the 15 days of March.

So that was a, that was an amazing result. But we also saw consumption of online courses again, out of existing schools. Increase by 450%. So lots of people who already had courses, or obviously under the extreme conditions of down being inside and being able to do something creative or something, find something entertaining.

They, one of the outlets they found for their creativity and their time was, were online courses. So we've seen huge demand, both for customers, but also from end users that want to learn something new. They want to hold their skills or to just spend some quality time online. If they're comfortable to the gym, they're looking towards an online course about fitness or something like that.

So this has [00:08:00] been an amazing period for online courses. I think the trends were already there. Education going online. I would say also the gradual, irrelevancy of traditional educational channels, like universities, where obviously they're absolutely irreplaceable in terms of what they do for the, for the, for the society.

But being able to acquire relevant current update state-of-the-art skills, you need something much faster than a university. Also people. Are willing to travel online and work online, then they're all the same strange we're already there. And what COVID-19 is actually accelerated all these things and put them like in three months, things that would have happened in, in, in 10 years probably happened in just over a few months.

And as you just mentioned, lots of businesses that didn't have anything to do originally with online training, like. Fitness instructors and the gyms and all those [00:09:00] industries that were badly affected. They were trying to find ways to stay in contact with our customers, with, be able to, to serve their clientele.

And online courses were one of those, eh, means. So we, call these models like emergency education. For example, a yoga studio that serves 50 people, or 100 people suddenly was closed and they had to try to find ways to reach their customers. Initially they turned to zoom or to Skype, but very soon they realized.

Not online courses are something that they, they need to test. And once they get the first taste, they realize the potential and the scaling of online courses. So suddenly you're not limited to teaching 40 hours or to the clientele you can find in your city or your immediate vicinity, but you can launch a great online course and potentially reach millions of customers all over the world.

So they [00:10:00] realize. How online courses can really give them an outlet from where Trinity four, seven, they can sell a digital product without any facts, without any legit. In just a few seconds, you can sell a digital product all over the world. And this is something that there's utilization. We've seen customers after the initial, like three months, which was a lot of panic and people like trying different solutions.

We see that this now a central scene. And people come back. They are now more determined to use them online courses, more systematic their search and come back and, and build real businesses. On top of online courses, with companies like Learn Worlds.

Andrew Michael: [00:10:40] Yeah, they're very interesting to sort of hear the numbers as well behind it. I think it's something very logical. I think we all sort of felt that needed to be at creative or to do some learning during lockdown, but hearing it from the perspective of your side, actually having the numbers bonded businesses. Who've interesting. I think another thing as well, like you're leading to definitely, and it it's something sort of, you [00:11:00] mentioned it, Covered a 99 new, early accelerated and the way things were moving.

And I think in the context of churn and retention as well, like a lot of businesses, might've seen a lot of churn during this time, but ultimately, like that's also acceleration of the inevitable, if somebody was unhappy and they were thinking about canceling that COVID just really accelerated that for them.

So they maybe have bigger problems, but it sounds like definitely from your side, you have the inverse and it's not really a back focusing on churn. I think it's more about how do you retain some of these new customers now that you've acquired? Cause what you're describing as well as almost like crossing the chasm where, you had your early adopters, really trying to build a business are trying to bring people over from different platforms who are already doing this education course online, who already a little bit savvy when it came to e-learning.

And then all of a sudden now you've like medic carrier, like a leap of a giant leap, to start serving the early majority now and really new people trying to learn and get online. And how are you thinking about this [00:12:00] transition when it comes to your own education, your own onboarding? Like, how are you thinking about retaining these new customers in this new breed of, teachers?

Panos Siozos: [00:12:09] First to, to comment on something you mentioned mentioning to churn. And we have been very lucky to win, to have witnessed over the past couple of months, negative churn in our plan form. So we have customers that have the line courses like last year, two years back, and they came to us pleading like, is there somewhere a backup that you can restore?

Because I need to get back online, my own, my courses. Today if possible. So that was a, that was an amazing thing to witness as a, as a business owner. And obviously we try to help as many people it's possible to get back online and use the platform the best, eh, as fast as that we could. And regarding. And onboarding.

This is something that I have to admit that we have done in the first couple of years of the company using our own plots platform to [00:13:00] educate them customers. We hadn't thought about originally. So we have they're much smaller size then, and we were onboarding all your customers manually. Like doing, offering live training to them.

But very soon we realized that obviously we need to eat our own dog food. So we launched our very own learn once Academy with free courses. Teaching people how to use the platform, but also teaching people how to become successful, like how they can create the best possible version of the online course that they can, how they can sell their online courses and also teaching them other stuff that they are in the periphery, but very relevant.

And even how to do interactive videos or while he's in the program, the equipment that you need in order to record an online course. So we started packaging all these knowledge and everything that we learned from our customers and every blog, post, or ebook that we publish. We always, the first thing that we, that we know that we want to do is create an online course [00:14:00] with this knowledge and offer it to our customers.

So our Academy has been instrumental. For both us a lead magnet, because the free courses that we offer in there, we share them in Facebook. We share them in feed in Twitter. And they work amazingly as lead magnets for potential customers. I always say that online courses are the eBooks of 2020. So the same way that we used to, and we still do to a certain extent, publish an ebook and PDF and put it out there and expect people to sign up, download the ebook and get their email or whatever.

By creating an online course, see multiplication of the conversion rates. That's something that we've seen because online courses are much more interactive. You can combine video, you can combine texts, people still get the value, but also education is the best form of marketing, very subtle and very effective.

So that was again, a huge boost for our funnel. Like getting more incoming traffic. Well then [00:15:00] the Academy really helped our people get on board. And try to use the platform. And even, I guess, saved lots of time out of our heads support because there's always a customer support base and like hundreds of support articles, which are very boring.

And people like usually get fed up and just send a ticket and try to get some human interaction. But we haven't seen that with online courses because. People can go through the course they can watch. He knows a consistent path. Step by step examples. They're feeling that they're getting trained. There's a very nice effect to that.

That it's not just some manual that you throw out your customers and expect them to learn about how to use the platform, but they feel at that point that they're getting some value out of what you have to offer. So in the case three months, We signed on about 4,000 users, obviously not everybody, right?

Once the Academy or needs the, I got him, he loads of people just go on the cell phone board and they, and they do some. Hey some, some, [00:16:00] some great stuff. Oh, the role about the Academy on its own has been immense in helping people use the platform and take the most out of the platform or they'll show learning the ropes under these extreme climate conditions.

We have lots of people that were. Trainers. They knew how to do teaching, but had no idea about how to market their product online. What is like a funnel. So we had to teach people about all these things and they're the Academy has been a major factor in that. And the second factor complimentary also we need lots of webinars obviously to help people, but even, even the webinars, we always record them and publish them in our Academy so that people can go in and they can see all these.

Treasure trove of knowledge, and they feel secure about us being the right tool for them and to help them with their, when the problem that they're trying to solve.

Andrew Michael: [00:16:55] Yeah, I love that as well, especially when you're able to use your own product to do [00:17:00] user onboarding and to be able to help and educate you spoke to quite a couple of things though, as well are I think the one is like not only using onboarding as a tool to educate how to use your product, but how to get success out of your product.

And I think. A lot of times as well. It really goes back to why did the user come to your product or service for what is the problem they're trying to solve? And, I think one thing you've identified is they didn't just come to you to set up an e-learning and set up a course that they can start selling, actually set it up to start driving sales and to get people to buy.

Their courses. And, I think that's one key thing as well. That's really, really important when it comes to onboarding is really thinking about, okay, it's not just about the features that they need to learn, how to use and adopt and start uploading, or, but it's really about how can we drive them to that first point of value where they see, okay, yes, I've created this course, but now I've actually made some money from this course and I can actually transact and build a business online.

So. Really cool to see that you've not only done it from an onboarding perspective, but then even actually turned out to be a lead magnet for you and repurposing, [00:18:00] reusing that content is a great way to sort of acquire customers.

Panos Siozos: [00:18:05] Totally. I totally agree. And if I may add something, sorry for in trouble, if I may add something here.

And we try to keep, in always on our minds that it's not about us and our product. It's not about us. It's about what the customer wants to achieve. And so we always try to see what is their end goal, and this is whatever other metrics we have about activation and like how, what people did in the platform.

The end, like how much they used it and whether they're like product qualified and whether they're ready to sign up. The actual activation point is when you're able, when people are able to get their first dollar out of your product, when they, the actually, and this is also the nice thing about the commercial, it's not an absurd thing.

Once they get the first dollar in their bank account and see that, okay, I got these two learn. Whoops. That's the crucial activation point, because now you are, you're supporting them. It [00:19:00] can be very small. I'd start just something like a few dollars trickling every, every week, every day or every week or every month.

But very soon you can become their main business. And that's a, that's our goal. Like helping people be independent and, and create a full fledged. Or online Academy international Academy with, with just the things that they know and start selling those things. So it's amazing to see that becoming a real.

Andrew Michael: [00:19:27] Yeah. I love that as well. That you're, like you said, it's an eCommerce business, so it's not an abstract point of value you can radiate pinpoint, like why did customers come and, really as you see sort of those, the dollar coming into that account, like this now as an activated business and they going, I think one of the best things as well about starting a business online is eing able to go to sleep and wake up with money in the bank in the morning. And I think that's sort of like one bof those aha moments for any person, like starting to transact online that can really fuel the fire to keep them going. So it's really cool that you've set that as an activation [00:20:00] metric and not just sort of like focused on vanity metrics, like accounts, setup, and courses.

So talking through that though as well, like. How far into your journey, did you get to this realization in terms of the activation metrics and what are the metrics are you looking at when you're trying to get people to that point where they are able to get dollars in their accounts or euros?

Panos Siozos: [00:20:24] In some

cases, it can be along process for them. So if somebody is just starting out to create an online school and they don't have the ready or they don't have the, an audience, then it's quite difficult to get them to a success, to a success point. Eh, w what we always look in our customers is. Whether they already have the content or can create the content very easily and whether they already have the audience or kind of create the audience.

So if you are a celebrity, you might not have an email list, but you can create an email list in a couple of weeks. If you just go out on TV or something. [00:21:00] So the, these are the main success, success points. So what we try is to get people there are, if you have moments in the, in the process, Eh, our platform also offers a website builder so people leave, they don't have a website, they can create the full website, the customer facing front end of their online school.

They can create it very easily with, with learn words. And one of the very few, the very first aha moment is one. When people go online, And started using the platform and putting their own logo and their own color theme on the platform. At that point, they realize that this is theirs. It's like they have, they have an online school.

Now they have an online presence and there are a few steps then like helping people to customize their landing page. And help them to create their very first online course. Once people reach this point, then conversion is usually very, very close just to just a few days after, after that says, it's only a matter [00:22:00] of time.

Once we, once they see how easily they can accomplish those steps, the, the, the real crucial part is helping them get their first sale. This is where we try to help them with ideas, giving them all the, the tools are Northern knowledge about. They're online, the marketing tools at work, you don't like courses, whether it's like how to do PPC and how to do retargeting, how to do content marketing, which some of them take time.

And obviously those tools are not for everyone, but once you have the content and have a have an audience, then getting your first dollars is it's, it can be just a few weeks away.

Andrew Michael: [00:22:42] Very nice. Yeah. And obviously it makes a lot of sense for different types of customers. You're going to have different times to values all depending on the sophistication, their network, their maturity in terms of content to create it.

So, are you looking at specifically like any different segments when it [00:23:00] comes to these types of customers? Like how are you segmenting your customers when you're looking at them from the lens of sort of activation and then also in terms of retention.

Panos Siozos: [00:23:09] There's the, the interesting thing about those are quite difficult from your point of view marketing about online online courses is that they're everywhere.

Everything can be told, and we have so many diverse segments. It can be professional training, it can be health and lifestyle. It can be yoga, it can be coaching. It can be religious. Anything that you can imagine me for, for kids, for adults, for seniors. So a, we have a very. A very diverse and very broad, a set of customer segments.

So not always easy to go to, to go after them and target them because learning is all horizontal and happens everywhere. Broadly speaking, we have people that are into selling online courses, let's say in the two main categories, if they're selling professional skills and things that people [00:24:00] want to. Put into value, put into practice and monetize right away.

Or if they're selling something that has more to do with personal wellbeing and, and, and getting, and getting a self-improvement let's say, and there are two other interesting segments that have been, increasingly. Going much stronger for us. And the first thing is also, I guess, quite relevant to your audience, which is customer education.

The thing I mentioned before, how we educate our own customers and how we get them activated and retained and, and active and active and successful within the platform. So we see lots of businesses that have. Difficult complex services to provide or complex products, or even the SaaS businesses that want to, to train their customers and help them onboard create their own academies.

So these people, they don't sell online courses, so they don't expect to see monetary value, but once. They are start there. They start signing their users and start [00:25:00] training them and getting them to become experts like learn world's expert or a HubSpot expert or whatever. Like the helps with Academy. I used to, I used to do it once they see this value, they really understand that this can be a great tool for their family and for their retention and for, and for counseling a church.

And also increasingly we have people that. Are doing internal training. Again, they don't want to sell online courses and they have their own employees or their associates that they want to the train by the perfectly well known that they don't want it traditional LMS, which usually is clunky, is a expensive, it needs an it department to set up and where the user experience is really.

It's easy. Most cases is quite low. Let's say, eh, the, the best thing usually like the, the, the w what people have to be learning is throw a PDF or a video out you at the time expect you to get [00:26:00] trained on, on something. But that's not how it works. Especially these days. People are in the millennials, I guess, are you having click digital experiences with their iPods and their gaming devices?

So that's where we are a great app creating amazing learner experiences with great looking courses, mobile friendly, interactive, engaging, and we have businesses. So we haven't been. That's not our, our main value proposition training your own customers. But increasingly we have people that want these consumer grade user-friendly, engaging, learning experience.

And they turn to us in order , to train, their employees or their associates, whatever. Yeah, audience, they have to train. So ask us, like, can we use the platform without taking advantage of the e-commerce features? And we say, yes, of course you can, you don't need to sell it to sell courses.

You can just offer your, your training internally or to the ordinances you, you like. So these are things. That again, have accelerated other COVID [00:27:00] as more and more small businesses that are trying to do their training online. And they don't always have the team or the capacity or the resources to use like a full fledged LMS.

And they're trying to find much quicker, easier, more user-friendly tools to do the task, to accomplish their objective. And we, we increasingly have success in helping them achieve that.

Andrew Michael: [00:27:24] Yeah. So it sounds like you have sort of three distinct customer segments in terms of like the use cases that they have for your product.

One, obviously being the online course creator who wants to make a business online out of it to being sort of a sauce, subscription business, or any company wanting to educate their customers on how to use their product. And then finally sort of companies trying to onboard and educate their own. employees and team members on a company policy and, things about the company.

So are you viewing these sort of three segments in any differentiating way when it comes to the product when it comes to pricing and [00:28:00] packaging? Like, are you thinking about any changes in that direction?

Panos Siozos: [00:28:05] Yeah, we, we already have different pricing for our corporate customers where usually, I mean, In an online course where you're selling courses to the general public.

These can become quite big because you have lots of customers, but not all of them convert into paid customers. So we have some schools that are running with hundreds of thousands of schools, but when it comes to internal training, people usually need licenses. So you need 100, 500, 1000 licenses. So the pricing there.  It's different. And eventually we will start differentiating the two lines of product. So people, we will be able to just hide the eCommerce features from people that don't want to use them, which would be like businesses that do internal training or customer education, or even NGOs that are not interested in selling online courses.

We lay there, there will be a slightly. It's like the customization within the product to make the user [00:29:00] experience for the school owners easier. And don't get them like overwhelmed with safety features or safety content, because that's not something that they, that they want one time.

Andrew Michael: [00:29:12] Yeah, cause I mean, it makes a lot of sense. Or like earlier you were talking about having a really strong alignment and understanding of what the main value deliver ring, and being able to measure that. Whereas within, like internal education, it's not really about the dollar value. It becomes maybe about the number of uses. Using the platform on viewing it and, having like a pricing and packaging strategy, that's really aligned with the main value metric, I think is sort of key in order to be able to scale, and able to see expansion of venue, which needs will it help you as sort of net negative churn overall?

So it's entrance this year. You're thinking about this going forward and how you'd be able to price and package your product. Based on the use cases, the customer has been what their main value is that they're driving and trying to get out of the product. so I have one question as well on associate we're running up on time, something else, every guest that joins the show.

[00:30:00] and let's imagine a hypothetical scenario now that you've joined a new company and at this company, churn and retention is not doing great at all. you've been asked to try and turn things around for the company and the CEO ischurnlooking to get results in three months in 90 days. What would be some of the activities you would want to be doing within this timeframe to  *try and get a little bit of a dent in churn retention at the company,

Two things I would spend the first two months creating the, the Academy for that product or business.

Educate your customers stay close to them, show them that you care for them, and that you offer content. Anything. You can repackage your content. You can repackage your training, your blog, and just provide it to them value and help them become successful and show that you care. And here's another interesting number that I might add to what I said before.

We see that the conversion rate. To customers [00:31:00] of people that have signed up for our Academy is more than triple than those that haven't signed up to the Academy. So there are three times as likely to sign up, even if they haven't used the actual courses of the account. I mean, just by seeing that this content is available there for them and that we produce all this content and at any point they can turn to us and go in there and find that they want they're more willing to sign up.

So that's, that was a, it took us a while to realize that, but that was a, that was a huge hot moment also for what we are doing and what our content strategy should be and how we should approach. Our costumers. So the first couple of months I would just spend or creating an Academy, educated people, not about, not about my product.

Again, it's about educating them how to become successful and how to achieve their objectives. And the other thing that I would do, let's say for the third month, is. Provide webinars either through their Academy or provide webinars [00:32:00] online with experts, even with your internal people, you can get out your marketing team or you're supporting, they are the ones that know your customers and know the usual products, the usual problems.

And they're what people are trying to achieve and how they become successful. So get this knowledge out of your, over the heads of your employees and, and share it with your customers and help them become successful. These are, I guess these are major things, should be number one. According to my understanding, do the things I've seen in my industry, that they should be number one and two priorities for, any, any size business.

It's coming from an educated, really focusing on that education. Now, I think definitely talking to onboarding and activation. we, we see this time and time again on the show is that it's probably one of the biggest areas where you can have an impact on general attention. And, it has one of the biggest compounding effects as well.

Cause if you're able to educate more users earlier on, you're able to keep more of them for longer. and then it just compounds from there. So [00:33:00] anything like as you go up the funnel and, focusing on really. Helping users get to that value as fast as possible and how to continue and create habits out of that, I think is definitely the way forward.

So yeah, I see, we are concerned about us, I think. Is any like funnel, would you like to leave the listeners with, anything they should be aware of or how to keep up to date with the work that you're doing?

Panos Siozos: [00:33:22] Well, I guess people, what kind of waste come to our website and check out the product and see if the top is something that they, that they like.

We know that loads of people have needs around education. Now we're trying to learn these stuff. So check out the content, the content that we are producing, and hopefully you can get some value out of that. I guess we need to just stay safe. stayed positive and test negative under these conditions, try to keep focused to our businesses, our families, our communities, and get back online, try to do creative stuff and, and put the things that we know out there and a rebuilt [00:34:00] things that we've lost in the, in the past few months and try to provide some value to ourselves or communities and the society in general.

Andrew Michael: [00:34:09] Very cool. Yeah. Thanks. I look for that message and a lot for joining the show today, it was a pleasure learning from you as well. And I wish you best of luck now going from

Panos Siozos: [00:34:17] Thanks Andrew, for having me have a nice day.

Andrew Michael: [00:34:20] Cheers.

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