[00:01:22] Andrew Michael: Hey, Philipp. Welcome to the. 

[00:01:25] Philipp Wolf: Thank you for having me, Andrew, 

[00:01:26] Andrew Michael: it's a pleasure for the listeners. Philipp is the founder of justify customer success. Software for sauce. Phillips started his career out at Avira as an antivirus researcher and worked his way up to the executive vice president's protection labs.

Leading a team of over 100. He then served as a CTO of fire security before founding Newt, whereas currently serving as a board member. So my first question for you, Phillip is what is an antivirus researcher. 

[00:01:52] Philipp Wolf: Right. So basically that's the person that analyzes computer viruses, malware. So these things that you [00:02:00] don't want to have on your machine and in order to have a protection against that, we first need to basically analyze what this virus or this Trojan or whatever that file that Madison's fighters, what it actually changes in the system on the.

Or could back then develop a protection against it. So an antivirus researcher analyze malware and develops protections against. 

[00:02:23] Andrew Michael: So basically reverse engineering, 

[00:02:25] Philipp Wolf: correct? Yeah. So the lowest level you can possibly go on a on a computer assembly language very deep in the system. What.

[00:02:35] Andrew Michael: Is it a laptop right 

[00:02:36] Philipp Wolf: now? I have a normal thing. 

[00:02:39] Andrew Michael: I think that I was just wondering if it's is it my misconception or is apple like less likely to be target for viruses? Or is this not the thing anymore? I remember back in the dead was one of. Advertising points. 

[00:02:54] Philipp Wolf: Yeah, it's a, it's probably still true.

However, it's not because the system is so much more secure than [00:03:00] Microsoft's operating system, which got a ton better since that time that you just mentioned. So they did. Huge improvements there. However you have to see that the malware is just basically an industry. So when we talk about this mass metalware, that targets consumers that they have basically they're on a business with an MRI calculation and all that stuff.

And it makes more sense to have something that targets 90% of the worldwide population with windows versus the 10% that have. A macro S however, there's also, or they had been, and there's always ongoing. Also some are for that particular system, because the in turn of the investment is actually higher because those people that have Macs typically also have more money.

So if you think of ransomware, these things that basically interrupt your system and ask you for a. Fee to basically to turn the data, then you can ask a significantly higher amount for someone on a Mac versus someone that has a 10 year old windows machine for 200 bucks. So it's, [00:04:00] let's say the sheer amount of never for windows is certainly higher than it is for Mac.

And that's the case. It doesn't say anything about the security level though, for either one of those systems. That's not why there was more malware for windows than it was. 

[00:04:13] Andrew Michael: Very interesting. So if anyone's listening and you're thinking about starting a ransomware companies actually understand which audience to go first.

Yeah, so I think obviously like reading out your sort of notes and doing a bit of research before the show, looking at your career for me. There's no clear like a path to justify where you are today and 

[00:04:33] Philipp Wolf: just being treated. Did this guy go from security to customer success basically, that's a good point.

As I mentioned in the intro correctly, so in the end, I was like a more in the executed board of their company. And in this wall, We also talked to several of SaaS companies and as a leadership team to the leadership teams, let's say. And one of the things that that I noticed back then is that a lot of SaaS companies already back then, they knew, by [00:05:00] the sense, if you want the customer acquisition costs, like everything was around customer acquisition, right?

So we have different teams, you do paid marketing, you do this kind of marketing authority, marketing and so forth. You go to conferences, you bring back bleed sense of it. The customer acquisition, part of it in a subscription-based business was tremendously overweight versus if we asked, okay, what do you do when they are customers?

We sent them newsletters. We have a support department. Okay. So there was this kind of a mismatch between the effort and the focus and the money that these companies spent to customer acquisition. The attention. And that was actually the trigger to look a little bit more into this into this let's say topic, I didn't even know back then that it was called customer success or there was a name attached to it.

Let's say I just saw that there's a clear mismatch the two. And I would say. Becca then that was like seven years ago. Something like this. When I [00:06:00] first got in touch with this situation customer success was still in the very various stages, right? So it was far from what it is right now, where even startups implement customer success and so forth.

It was really a different time back then. But even though the situation is the same, you spend a lot of money acquiring customers, and then you do not spend enough effort and money to keep. And we know all this calculations out there, how much more of this expense, how much more expensive it is to acquire a new customer versus keeping an existing one.

And we know all these things, same for employee retention, basically losing employees is also divorced that you can do as a company on the long run because of this as a similar effect your like hiring new persons and onboarding them. And so us and all the knowledge that leaves is it's a similar.

If that was the, that was the, how I got in touch with this topic. And yeah. Then the trigger to create custom fire to start a company in that space was simply because looking at the [00:07:00] market there were, there was already. Which obviously is a great product and serves a certain customer segment.

But what about all these other SMBs, mid companies that cannot afford this huge down payment and this long implementation cycles? What about those? So what do these guys do? And that was the trigger to create something that also matches that kind of audience. 

[00:07:25] Andrew Michael: Yeah, absolutely. I think that was also one of the motivations.

I think what you mentioned in the beginning is that for starting this podcast, is that so many like SaaS and early-stage companies, they spend so much time and if it's on a user acquisition and then at some point there's this oh, shit moment where they're like, oh, we should have been thinking about retention a lot more than we do now.

And then there's like the scrambled to try and fix things. And some companies are just too late. 

[00:07:49] Philipp Wolf: We saw over the time that we are in this that, this moment that you just mentioned, it moves like always it gets earlier and earlier. While like things [00:08:00] were.

In series A back then, it's now basically before you go to seed or it's already there, you have this conversations typically okay, what do you do about what's your strategy to keep customers at least that, right? It doesn't mean you haven't super professionalized with a team and all that's, what's your churn rate and what do you do about it?

So this these things get implemented early on. Yeah. 

[00:08:21] Andrew Michael: Absolutely. I think it's because a lot of venture capitalists are from also been burned by this like type of growth can really mask issues with churn and retention very easily. And I think it's going to become more and more of a problem now, especially with the amounts of money that's been poured into all these companies.

And if anything, it's just going to raise acquisition costs on these different channels because more people have more money to spend. And then purchasing. Like less good customers over time. So I think over the next 12 to 18 months is definitely be interesting. Knock-on effects of what's been happening in the markets when it comes to fundraising and startups.

So tell us a little bit about custom fire. What is it that you actually do in the customer success space? How do you help. 

[00:08:59] Philipp Wolf: Yeah. [00:09:00] We are a classical customer success platform. So the audience, most likely there is probably customers of ours in the audience. But there's probably also people that use gain side or one of those platforms.

We help customer success teams to understand their portfolio to understand which customer needs my help. Why does this customer need. We structure QPRs. We structured data that they need in order to prepare for QPRs. We are a one stop shop for the team in the sense of taking notes logging calls, sending emails and so forth.

So if you want we are the CRM for a customer success. And as teams in our case are typically somewhere between three and 50 or from a size perspective. So earlier on startups that have that the founder even themselves to be worked in customer success, right? So in the earlier days, you, as a founder, typically are also wearing a lot of hats.

And one of them has to be also these days around attention. So that is what justifies doing with all the health scoring, with all the automation that you can think of which [00:10:00] makes the life easier. So typically being able to handle customers in a much better scale. So if you work with spreadsheets and these kinds of things, In the beginning, that is typically how most of our customers started off.

So our main competitors are split sheets as a, in most cases. And that works to a certain extent, but if you like scale the team, if you scale your customer base and you have all of a sudden 150 instead of 30 customers per CSM, Then each minute counts, like each minute that you need to search in some system that you need to open the CRM that you need to log into this ticketing system that you go to your Skype account and see the renewal data and everything that is typically in other costs, these systems that just consumes time.

And if you multiply that over the day with all the customers that you handle, then this just becomes inefficient to to not have a popper. Yeah, for 

[00:10:50] Andrew Michael: sure. The one question I had as well, you, we talked a little bit briefly before we started discussing as I definitely, this is a space that's heated up a lot.

So there's a lot of products and [00:11:00] services that have internet to service customer success. Because as we mentioned, like a lot of companies now are seeing the value of really focusing and doubling down on their, like, How are you seeing the market evolving when it comes to customer success, software itself and serving the customer success space.

[00:11:15] Philipp Wolf: So I think there are The larger players like Gainsight, for example they serve the Parker. Then there's a, then there's tools like Custify that are more for the mid-market. So I think everybody's in a certain targeting. Customer segment out there, certain SaaS companies in a certain stage.

So while before you had little choices and you had to like, just pick a tool or not pick a tool, and it's either really expensive or you stick with your spreadsheets. You now have the chance to just pick the tool that works best for you. And there are tools that That are more focused on very high touch customer success processes.

Let's say you have 10 customers, but all very big logos and you have one to three customer success managers per [00:12:00] account that worked perfect for those. And then there's more for then there's tools like Custify that are more towards let's say a more Cynthia, the poets where you typically have a CSM typically has somewhere between, I don't know, 30 and 150 accounts.

That depends a little bit. Or even up to, we have also customers that have like up to 500 accounts and they automate a lot of the processes for for pods of their customers, but we see more and more. And you can imagine that, that just go on a passing pace of a SaaS company that the customer success team typically has different segments of customers that they treat differently, that they have to treat differently.

So they have the big logos, the enterprise customers, they have a few of them, but they are very high touch and they would always call them. And then they have the starter plan that they sell for $99. And they're simply they cannot afford to have QPRs with these guys and they want some automation running for them, still working with them, black, the fleet, but not in the same extent.

And that's where it cost-effectively fits in perfectly. If you have this more like hybrid approach where certain customers have more high touch and the others are eventually a [00:13:00] bit more automation. 

[00:13:01] Andrew Michael: Yeah. So you definitely what you're saying as well as there's a lot more niche services pairing now focusing on specific problems or pain points the success is facing and it's not necessarily bad for your side as well, perspective.

Everybody's carving out a space in the market at this point. 

[00:13:16] Philipp Wolf: It's a bit like the CRM space probably 15 years ago or so, or 10 years ago. So there's reasons for Salesforce to exist and it's not a great fit for everyone. Some others might very well do their sales process with Pipedrive, which is a very specific niche of customers and a very specific sales process.

But it's a really good fit. And it's probably also significantly cheaper and much quicker to implement both have to exist. But as a SaaS company, I have a lot of CRM. Choose from that are exactly matching my use case. And I see that for customer success as well. 

[00:13:47] Andrew Michael: Absolutely. Very interesting.

And definitely obviously I think it's only going to grow from there because this is one space where more and more companies are investing in and more and more money is going to be put aside to customer success over time. [00:14:00] Hopefully at some point we get to the same level of sophistication from customer retention as we do when it comes to customer acquisition 

[00:14:05] Philipp Wolf: Definitely.

And also what we saw in the last years is that if you go for an investment at some point in time, you're going to get any way, those questions as a company. As I mentioned before, what's your churn? What do you do about it? Do you have it professionalized? Do you have a pole commonplace?

Do we have a team in place? And that's the latest stage when the customers typically look out for a platform, because then they that's the latest stage when the investor comes to you and say okay, We love what you do. However, this number is not good. Like you have to do something about this number.

Then that's the latest stage that we typically see customers reaching out 

[00:14:40] Andrew Michael: What do you advise  to customers at that stage. Like the company is going decent. They have a problem with retention. 

[00:14:47] Philipp Wolf: Yeah. What I can tell you from experience is that the. The more your data is in order, the easier it's going to be.

Also at the later stage to implement the, to justify your customer success [00:15:00] platform. Now, most of the platforms, the one that are very targeting on very high touch I'm going to exclude those, but most of the other platforms. They live by the data that is fed into it. That starts with like unique identifiers across systems.

So if you have your CRM not connected to your payment gateway and your payment gateway is not at all connected to your product. Then you have to do this homework first before, before you can actually integrate them all in one tool, because there's no way to just match the customers from your CRM, with your, let's say your Stripe account.

If there is no way that we can identify them. So data hygiene is one of the. That I can recommend any SaaS company starting doing early on. Because in the beginning, when you start doing it, that's still very easy to come up with these processes and to think about how these, all these tools might be interconnected at some point in time, even not even if it's not today.

And then of course it helps also if there is a knowledge of product tracking in the company. So what are my key KPIs? Do I want to track, how do I'm what's a healthy customer, right? So that's [00:16:00] the first thing that we typically clarify with our customers in our onboarding.

Like, how do you actually define the house, the customer. Some of them have a very clear idea and they have very outlined. They need to use this feature at least once a month. So you need to go here. So what's the value that your product provides because typically when people churn is because they don't get valid.

At this is the churn that you can definitely influence there's other term limits. They go out of businesses, not so much that you can do, even with the greatest customer success team is probably not much you can do about it. But the turn that you can handle it, or the turn that you can do something about is typically the one where you do not provide value, or you don't provide enough value for them to stay with you.

And that value typically ties down to data points that that, that. As a customer success platform need to extract from the product. And the more is already there eventually even historically, or the more, the skill set is somewhere there in the product management or in the CS team about the [00:17:00] understanding of the core value that your product service provides the better.

So the clearer you are about these things early on that, the easier it's going to be to implement the platform like Custify. 

[00:17:12] Andrew Michael: Get things set up. Yep. It's definitely something as well that. Not the easiest thing to do at the beginning, correct. Because I think like you're moving so fast. You're trying to just be scrappy to some degree, get things done, but ultimately like the end results and the value you get from just doing the groundwork a little bit early on and just putting together a good tracking plan to start with understand what are the key metrics that you're looking at?

What are the properties that need to go into that? Just being a little bit thoughtful that doesn't take much time. But like you said, like the end results that comes from it, like at a later stage, when you do need to start integrating with other services and products and to get the maximum value, like it really helps to get to that point and just have put a little thought in the beginning can really have big returns at the end of the day.

Yes, 

[00:17:57] Philipp Wolf: I can. I can always like I can [00:18:00] always second that, that invest a bit more time. It might take a little bit longer to think about. How do we integrate this new tool into our current environment, the CRM or whatnot, if you switch CRMs or if you get one how do we link that to our payment gateway or to our accounting system or to Alberta congenital?

So how do we identify a user and the company across those two? So that we know that they all have an ID or they all have some kind of way that we can, we know for sure. Okay. This guy is that guy in the CRM. That it's it really doesn't take too much longer. It's just actually, when you do the implementation, just like a have this in mind because you probably down the road want to interconnect a CRM with some other tools, not just like a customer success platform, but eventually even.

[00:18:41] Andrew Michael: This is actually one of the reasons why I'm a big fan of segment a itself because I think my segment really did for me, at least at the various companies I've worked for. And now every has had switching costs become very low. If you have a really good like dentist I can place and you've got a good tracking plan is good consistency.

[00:19:00] Enabling new tools and services are really easy to. But without that historical history and without that clarity, it's 

[00:19:05] Philipp Wolf: you're right. Segment force us. You actually, for this data, hygiene is you have to do it only then can you interconnect to others? That's right. And we have customers using segment and then Dennis, of course, super easy for them.

It's plug and play. It's one button. Data outcomes. So that's awesome. And you're done. But you don't actually need to use second itself. We have also plenty of customers that build their own segment, their own data hub, where they can interconnect systems easily with the API. Segment has the only drawback in segment is that you have, of course, a novelization of API calls.

That means all the special things you would like to. With a tool like a CRM or with testify or any other tool that you connect there, you have to normalize your API calls because that's the way that how segment works. And you lose eventually a little bit of flexibility that you would like to have when you talk to the native API.

But other than that, yes, you're absolutely right. So it's forces people into this data hygiene early on. Yeah. 

[00:19:57] Andrew Michael: Yeah, and I think it's important. It's actually one that we had [00:20:00] an episode as well with them on the show. One of the things that came up was all like on the onboarding was how segment actually added friction to their use onboarding.

In the beginning, by literally like in the beginning, they allow people just to sign up and get started with the tool service. And then they said this is not working because people are just going ahead. Falling into the same traps and making the same mistakes they did previously. So they actually introduced a step where they made you do a a tracking plan before working with one of their customer success reps to get in shape and make sure that you're tracking the right things.

And there was this level of hygiene involved That friction, that the edit ended up having a huge increase in retention and activation at the end of it. I always love that episode because it's one of those sort of stories that are a little bit counter-intuitive to what most people would say, get them through as fast as possible, get them to that ramen as quick as you can, but sometimes like to get to an actual wall moment, you need to add the friction and you need to Make sure people are getting set up correctly.

[00:20:51] Philipp Wolf: Yeah. Some of those things are a bit painful. That's indeed. That's indeed true. However, the live art is big. Once you have the data in place, all the insights that you have there. And there. [00:21:00] There's probably only one thing that is worse than not having any data has been, the data is reliable.

So you have something and it's fall, right? So you take the wrong conclusions from your data because the data is wrong. Not just in a tracking tool or in segment, but also in a customer's XX platform. If the health score is very low and the team is getting knowledge, while on the other hand, everything is totally fine.

Then this is, I think this is even worse than having no data. 

[00:21:24] Andrew Michael: Yeah, let's talk about that health scores as well. It's going to be my next thing. Obviously it's part of the platform is all that you provide. Talk us through, you mentioned like some customers have a really good understanding. Others need work when it comes to figuring this out, how does customer, how do you work with customers to build out their customer health score?

[00:21:44] Philipp Wolf: Yeah, a very good question. And actually this health scoring is also one of the things. If you ask in the call, like when someone signs up for them or what are the things you want to do? Health care is to be the number one thing that everybody wants to do. Health scores We have a little bit of a conversation there because [00:22:00] if someone tells me, for example, one of the most important health scores is how often they log into the platform.

Frequently mentioned this. Typically our answer is this is most likely not your most significant health score because there's barely a few products out there that actually exist. So you can log in and see something like child mobile abide, be one of those or yeah, there are some where, okay, I'm logging in.

I'm not. Done, but most likely your value is. Provided by someone logging in. It's okay to have the Salesforce somewhere there like an activity, but that's not the reason why people pay you money. That's not the pain that you solve. So typically what we do with them is we have in our onboarding process, we look at their product.

So our CSM team is looking at them. So walk me through your onboarding, walk me through a user with how a user would typically use the platform. What are the key things that they get from? What's the key value that they get? And then we derive the health score based on that. So basically we derive the health score, the key health scores based on.

Yeah, the value that the [00:23:00] product provides, that's that's how we do that. And that's very custom to each and every SaaS product it's, as you can imagine, each SaaS product each solves a very different pain point. So each of our customers has very different health scores or. Tight around the value that their product provides.

That is how I would describe the Goodwill score. And they can vary. They can vary. For example, the value that you need to provide in the onboarding phase is different than somebody in the expansion phase, perfectly fine. But still in the onboarding, you try to get them to the first value and what are the steps that they need to get there?

How do you monitor that? They take those steps. They follow those things in the product. They set up their profile to invite more users, et cetera, whatever that might. And that's what we analyze together with them. We go through their onboarding. How do they onboard customers? We go through their value proposition.

What is on the, what do you actually sell on your marketing website on, in your sales calls? What do you promise your customers? Why do customers purchase your product and how can we translate those in health? 

[00:23:55] Andrew Michael: Something, you mentioned. I was interesting. When you think [00:24:00] about health scores, are you segmenting by the stage or like the phase of the user journey?

So if it is at sign up and the first, maybe two, three months of a life cycle and versus maybe one year in are there different variables that go into the health score and the way that you're measuring a customer sort of platform? 

[00:24:17] Philipp Wolf: For most of the customers, including ourselves, obviously we use our own platform.

Yes. So in our onboarding process, for example, it's important that you start using the product that you set up, certain things that's the health in the first, let's say three months. So it's very important that you that you get started there later on. Those things are not so much relevant anymore.

It's not that you add a lot of health scores, but you have your health scores. What is it? 11 that you actually, for example, work on the tasks that are assigned to you, because if you have, I dunno, 15 overdue tasks all the time, then something is wrong. Either you don't log in enough, or I don't know, those tasks are wrong and you don't see the value there, but basically those health scores typically change.

With the, let's say the state, the customers is in, and that's true [00:25:00] for many other SaaS as well. Not always, but most of the times this is the case. Yes. And then you can spin this further and you can typically say, okay, Then we have certain either segments by the industry or by the use case, because not all the customers use the product in the same way or are expected to use the product in the same way or by the size of this.

Or some of them might not have certain features depending on the plan they're on. So it doesn't make sense to have a health score for a feature that I'm cannot even access. So the segmentation is not just by the lifecycle stage, but also by. Factors, for example, the plan that they have or the industry they are in, or the expected use case that you, that we would put them into a certain segment.

So yeah. How scores are typically vetted for your customers and are not the same across the board and not the same for all the stages that are in. 

[00:25:53] Andrew Michael: Interesting. So then through the platform, my understanding is that you can create multiple different health scores and then [00:26:00] targeting different segments and audiences and putting them through that.

I really like as well, like the point that you made that different segments, different customers, or maybe even different plans that. If you have this generic approach to health scoring it's not going to probably be a good indicator overall, and you're definitely going to get the cases where you have certain segments that aren't typical behavior, but they're still getting value using the service in another way and segmenting that out step further.

It gives you a little more clarity and makes the numbers themselves a little bit more valuable than something that's more generic and sweeping across the board. 

[00:26:30] Philipp Wolf: Correct? It gets you less false positives in both ways. 

[00:26:35] Andrew Michael: Nice. I'm going to ask you a question that I ask every guest that joins the show.

Let's imagine a hypothetical scenario. You joined a new company, tryna retention is not doing good at all. At this company, the CEO comes to you and says, Hey, Phillip, like rarely to turn things around. We have 90 days to do it. You're in charge. What do you do? But there's a catch. The catch is you're not going to tell me I'm going to go speak to customers to figure out what the biggest pain [00:27:00] points is and start there.

You're just going to pick something like, from any playbook that you've seen, that's been effective in the past and run with that blindly, what would it be? 

[00:27:09] Philipp Wolf: I would say. Churn is not churn or churn is not always the same. There's many reasons for churn. So the key. So if all the information I have is that we have an attention problem, I would really first need to understand what is the reason people leave my career.

Really good to go that path. And if I cannot talk to customers, I might look at some data points that I have available. I might look at some tracking statistics that I have available. Maybe these guys did exit interviews so I can listen to them. But the key for the key in order to do something is first to understand why.

What is the reason why people leave us is to we, for example, we had customers 

[00:27:47] Andrew Michael: okay. Of it, because this is like the cliche answer the difference. And you have to understand what the wrong, but the question is just pick something that you've seen be effective in the past. So it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to apply and work for this company, but you're going to run with a [00:28:00] blindly, like what's something that you've seen help reduce churn in a short space of time.

[00:28:04] Philipp Wolf: Okay. Introduce exit interviews, not surveys.

Yeah, so every, so I would go by this depending a little bit, what this, what, how this company would sell. But I would basically have this person speak to me before they can leave. You need to speak to me. I'm going to constantly a contact, but you're going to speak to me. I have two questions for you.

That means I can gather this data. I can understand what is the actual problem like from the day one that I joined, you speak to me when you want. However you're going to get this implemented, but then I can get to the root cause of the problem quickly. I don't need three months for that.

Yeah, of course. Depending on the Honda churn, but let's say we have a good problem. I don't need three months for that to get a good picture. I'm probably like getting back to you after one month already in gonna say, okay, this is the problem we need to fix the marketing message we need to fix.

We cannot sell to this customer segment [00:29:00] anymore. They expect something totally different, not the pain that. We can not change the border. This is the wrong customer, or I'm going to say this feature has to be implemented. Like everybody leaves because this doesn't work. So this is probably the thing I'm gonna, I'm gonna make them talk to me.

Have you done 

[00:29:17] Andrew Michael: this? 

[00:29:18] Philipp Wolf: Yes, we have done this before. We have also a case study with one of our customers that we did with amazing the sales, by the way. So talking to the customer customers, it makes really a difference. Like it there's really no excuse why you don't, where you cannot.

These guys are not in a high touch business. So these guys are not in a, the customer pays me a thousand bucks per month kind of business. And still they do it with a subset. You still got there. It might even help you to reduce the churn because in this conversation you talked about.

What is your problem? Yeah, we've end out of a lead Scott now because of COVID. Okay. Is it okay if I give you a scheme on three of the platform? Oh yeah, that would help. Okay. Shandra vented, were these kinds of things or they had the back [00:30:00] and I really cannot. Okay. Would you stay with us if I can commit to you that this pack is going to be fixed next week?

Yes. That was. Okay, let me make that happen. So in this conversation, not just do you learn about the root cause of the problem and eventually figure some patterns. You might also be able to reduce the churn in the moment that you talk to these people hide from day one. Yeah, that's awesome. 

[00:30:21] Andrew Michael: I like it in principle, but in my mind, I just feel, it sounds like you're going to be hit with a lot of friction and a lot of angry people.

And if I'm not mistaken, I think it's just been passed into law that it's become illegal. Especially if you're doing a somebody can self-serve to buy, but con self-serve to cancel Then I think pretty sure it was a law that was recently passed in one or two companies got sued as a result of it.

[00:30:45] Philipp Wolf: Yes. As I said, it depends a little bit on your business model and how you do things. But even if you can, self-concept I can incentivize you to go on a call with me. I'm going to give you a 100, I'm going to give you a hundred dollars, Amazon, Marcia to speak 10 minutes to me. Is that [00:31:00] okay? I'm sorry.

I'm sorry that you left. Can I speak to you for 10 minutes here for an exchange of a $100 Amazon voucher. Okay. So Forrest doesn't mean that I cannot I have to do it in a sense of, yeah. I cannot basically cancel it against a concert, but I'm going to make them talk to me as much as possible.

[00:31:18] Andrew Michael: Okay. Next question then what's one thing that you noted about tryna retention that you wish you knew when you got started with.

[00:31:27] Philipp Wolf: That there are so many different reasons. Yeah. 

[00:31:32] Andrew Michael: And then that's the premise of the show. I think actually is always just, there's so many different reasons, some different inputs 

[00:31:38] Philipp Wolf: Yeah. As we talked about before, before we started recording is really, this is one of the most complex problems a business has because it can start with the wrong customers that you acquire.

It can be your product, it can be your service, it can be a combination of things. It can be your onboarding. There's a lot of reasons why churn happens. 

[00:31:59] Andrew Michael: [00:32:00] Absolutely. Cool. Philipp to me, a pleasure chatting to you today is any final thoughts that you want to leave the listeners with anything you want to share before we drop off today?

[00:32:07] Philipp Wolf: Yeah. Speak to your customers do this often do it as often as you can. And. Yeah. I guess this is the key thing to just talk to your customers as, as often as you can invest the time. And if you're early on, if you're early on startup, do it as a founder team don't assume things both down by talking to your customers, not just in product development, but also in all the other things like what they thought they could solve for the product and what they actually can and so forth.

This really helps you. 

[00:32:34] Andrew Michael: Absolutely. Thanks so much for joining today, Philip p wish you best of luck now. 

[00:32:39] Philipp Wolf: Thanks, Andrew. It was a pleasure.

[00:32:41] Andrew Michael: And that's a wrap for the show today with me, Andrew, Michael, I really hope you enjoyed it. And you're able to pull out something valuable for your business to keep up to date with churn.fm and be notified about new [00:33:00] episodes. Blog posts and more subscribe to our mailing list by visiting churn.fm. Also, don't forget to subscribe to our show on iTunes, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

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