00:00:00 Tom: The average CSAT survey, how many responses do you get? 2%, 5% maybe? No more than that. I mean, I've hardly seen customers that have a 50% answering rate on their CSAT surveys. So you have a 2% answering rate. What do you want to do with 2% of your entire population? You are going to project that on the entire population. That's kind of dangerous. Secondly, it's a moment in time. Maybe you've got that guy or that girl just at a good moment, so you got a good CSAT. Thirdly, you have to be lucky. You get the right person within the company to ask 'cuz probably the CFO will give a different answer than the end user

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00:00:41 VO: How do you build a habit-forming products?  How do you… Don't just guns for revenue in the door?

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 00:00:48 Andrew: This is CHURN.FM, the podcast for subscription economy pros. Each week, we hear how the world's fastest growing companies are tackling churn and using retention to fuel their growth.

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00:01:01 VO: How do you build a habit forming products ? We crossed over that magic threshold to negative churn. You need to invest in customer success. It always comes down to retention and engagement. Completely bootstrap. Profitable and growing. 

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00:01:14 Andrew: Strategies, tactics and ideas brought together to help your business thrive in the subscription economy. I'm your host, Andrew Michael, and here's today's episode.

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00:01:26 Andrew: Hey Tom, welcome to the show.

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00:01:28 Tom: Hi, Andrew. Thank you for having me.

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00:01:30 Andrew: It's great to have you. For the listeners, Tom is the founder of Carnewal Consult, a customer success consulting firm. Prior to Carnewal Consults, Tom was the director of digital transformation at Altares D&B and has over 25 years experience in the IT and SaaS space. So my first question for you, Tom, is what does a director of digital transformation do?

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00:01:52 Tom: That is a very good question. Well, basically, you are a super project manager at that moment because what a director of digital transformation does is he makes sure that an organization, in this case, Dun and Bradstreet,  Altares transforms itself into the day after tomorrow. It's not just implementing new technology platforms, it's also transforming all of the processes, the way you are working, the way you position the customer within those processes and so on and so on. So basically you are the architects of the preparation of this organization for the day after tomorrow. That's basically what you do.

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00:02:34 Andrew: And how did you get into that? 

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00:02:37 Tom: Well, actually, D&B asked me for a completely different mission. They asked me to transform their customer experience department in the [inaudible], which I did way back in 2018, 2019. And I must have done a pretty good job because the new CEO came to see me and he said, "Tom, I have a mission for you. We have this digital transformation that has been ongoing for more than a year now. It cost of this three IT directors. It's in a rut, could you please help us to get it rolling?" And that's how I got into that because you are right. I'm basically not an IT project manager or whatever. This being said, digital transformation should not be an IT project. That's another thing. But yeah, that's how I got into it because of the success of the transformation of the customer experience department.

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00:03:31 Andrew: Interesting. Yeah, my line of questioning wasn't anything to do with your experience in IT. I didn't even realize that. Everything I just found interesting. The title of,  the role itself. And so yeah, Carnewal Consult. Maybe you wanna give us a little bit of an overview of  what you do Carnewal Consults?

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00:03:46 Tom: Well, we actually do, we just launched a new brand which is called the Customer Cross company. And that is a service organization that delivers on the promise of durable growth, revenue growth for our customers. And we do serve by focusing on customer  success and customer experience principles. So that's in a nutshell what we do. We help our customers to grow their revenue.

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00:04:09 Andrew: Yeah, interesting. And this as well, like we chat a little bit before the show as well. You have your own sort of framework that you come into companies and help adopt. What sort of stage are you working with companies at? Like what would a typical customer come to you that they look like? What would be the size of the company or their team?

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00:04:26 Tom: Yeah, our typical customer is usually a scale up company. So a mid sized company with a recurring revenue model. So yes, we do have a lot of sales business in our customer portfolio. Yeah. So recurring revenue upscaling,  mid-sized company in Europe.

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00:04:45 Andrew: And like employee accounts and then may be the team customer. 

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00:04:50 Tom: Yeah, anything that ranges between 10 to 500 employees. So this is more or less where we are. 

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00:04:56 Andrew: All right. And then are you coming in and helping set up the first customer success team? Is it evolving? It's like what is the typical processing?

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00:05:03 Tom: Yep. One of the things we do is,  for the very young and small companies and an experienced companies in our portfolio, we would help them to set up their customer success teams. We would help to plot out the strategic view on how customer success should be done within that organization. But for existing organizations that already have something in place, we would help them to revise this and to review this and to make sure it grows along with them. 'Cuz let's not forget your customer success organization should grow along with the rest of your organization and your market. I mean, if you went to your series A, B, C, you will approach things different. In the beginning, everybody this customer success, once you have 200 employees, that is slightly different.

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00:05:47 Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. We've discussed this at, I think on the show as well, like the different stages of growth and then what the different needs are. And has that evolved over time? It's almost like, and I think this is in general in company building as a whole, there's never like a perfect state. Everything is like constant evolution and figuring things out as you go along. You also like mentioned as well in email, when you reached out, we were having a chat, is that you had some interesting data as well, I think, where you ran a study,  across different products and services and had some customer success data that was quite interesting to share. So maybe just give us a little bit of a bit about the background. Like what got you to start looking into this data and then what did you find?

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00:06:32 Tom: Yeah, it's good that you mentioned it. Just to give you some context why we did the research. We have this framework that allows our customers to detect pretty easily their best set of actions in terms of customer success. So we help them to do that. But then the next step is, okay, how can I follow up on those actions? What KPIs should I be using or should I not be using? And we noticed that in a lot of companies, this is done based on gut feeling. I mean, we do CSAT, we do NPSs, we do ARR, whatever. So, as an engineer, I was like, "No, we should do this in a more data driven way." And I had been reading this book maybe you've read as well, Fighting Churn With Data written by, oh, what's his name? Carl. Carl Gold. Fighting Churn With Data. 

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00:07:19 Andrew: Had him on The show book before.

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00:07:20 Tom: Yeah. Excellent book. Excellent book. If you haven't read it, you should. And I was like, yeah, I had data in my pocket, which I had been collecting over the years. So we analyzed the data set over of about 260,000 B2P companies, which we anonymized in our database. We tried to find any correlation between CF actions and the KPI. In other words, is there any link between applying an action and seeing a result in the KPI and vice versa if my KPI goes up, does that mean that my action was successful? And we basically analyzed the most common KPIs in CS which are about 15 to 20 different,  KPIs ranging from NPS, CSAT over the number of tickets GRR, NRR,  you know, all that kind of stuff. And we plotted the result in a giant matrix.

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00:08:12 Tom: And so now we have like this huge matrix that allows us to say, okay, if this is the kind of action you want to do, you should be using this KPI because that will give you the best tracking results. And the other way around if you want to use this as a KPI, while you should be using it for this kind of actions. So yeah, that was really cool. Now, it might be a bit too much to go into details of the entire research cuz it's quite big and it would probably take us the entire morning to analyze the matrix. But if I have to give you the three key findings. The number one key finding was if you can choose one and only one KPI to track your customer success actions, it should be usage data. Usage data or any other transactional KPI you have at your disposal for that matter such as, I dunno, number of active customers or date of loss login or something like that. But preferably usage data. 

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00:09:05 Tom: Now I do know not everybody has usage data. I do realize that. And in that case, second best choice is customer results. So customer ROI, which then has another downside because a lot of our customers have a problem in defining what is customer result. But that's another thing. So that's the first finding. If you have one and only one KPI, you should use usage data. Second finding is if your customer success team are not yet tracking the impact of your team as a revenue driver, you should urgently do so because there's so many KPIs, easy to use. KPIs and KPIs are usually easily available within every company to track that you should definitely do that. 

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00:09:48 Tom:  And then the third finding, and not everybody will agree with me on that, but it's based upon the data that is that CSAT or NPSs or any other satisfaction KPI you want to use for that matter. It's completely worthless when it comes to predicting customer churn. I'm not saying that CSAT is not a real thing, that is another discussion. I'm saying that CSAT as a KPI to deduct churn risks or to track your customer success actions is a very bad idea. So that basically is a result of the, in a nutshell of the research.

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00:10:24 Andrew: Why do you say it's a bad idea?

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00:10:26 Tom: Because we could find absolutely no correlation between the time a customer would spend with us and the results in the CSAT surveys. So again, I'm not saying that if a customer says in a CSAT that he's not happy that you should not help him. I didn't say that it's a real thing. What I'm saying is that there's no correlation and it's not that there is a small correlation. No, we couldn't find any correlation. So you would find in any segment of customers leaving your company, you would find any type of answers on the CSAT. So yeah, and this is why I'm saying CSAT is about KPI which confirms the idea that happy customers do leave you. Right? And there's a number of reasons why CSAT is doing so bad. And if you wish we can go into that.

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00:11:15 Tom: And one of them is pure statistics, right? The average CSAT survey, how many responses do you get? 2%. 5% maybe? No more than that. I mean, I've hardly seen customers that have like a 50% answering rate on their CSAT surveys. So you have a 2% survey,  2% answering rate. What do you want to do with 2% of your entire population? You are going to project that on the entire population. That's kind of dangerous. Secondly, it's a moment in time. Maybe you got that guy or that girl just had a good moment. So you've got a good CSAT. Thirdly, you have to be lucky you get the right person within the company to ask. 'Cuz probably the CFO will give a different answer than the end user. So there's a multitude of reasons why CSAT is a bad customer success indicator. And it reminds me of a phrase of Dan Steinman at Pearls Europe way back 2017 and for a full house. He said, "I couldn't care less that my customers are happy." And everybody was like, "What is he saying?" "No, I couldn't care less that my customers are happy, I want them to be successful." And that's the whole thing. And this is why CSAT can be used for many other things, but it's a bad idea to use it for your customer success.

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00:12:38 Andrew: Customer success. Yeah. I think like this is all CSAT, NPSs and I think the point you make as well, specifically around,  the sample size and the audience as well, that audience is incredibly biased, too. Because the people motivated enough to fill in those surveys are definitely typically the ones on other extreme, they're either incredibly happy people. They're incredibly... It's never the in between as well. So it's difficult to sort of, you cannot project, like you say, it's onto the 98.

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00:13:07 Tom: I fully agree with that. And and often your most motivated and engaged customer is the one who pushes your product or your service to the limit. And they often will have a lot of remarks and questions and they lock tickets and they might find bugs. So are they the most satisfied one? Most likely not, but they're probably the most engaged ones. Cause they're pushing your service or your product to the limit, right?

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00:13:32 Andrew: Yeah. This comes back to, I can't remember the previous episode. It was a similar like study where they looked at data and one of the big correlating factors to retention they found was actually if somebody had submitted a support request, which is comes into like people would think, oh, if someone's supporting a support quest, they're not happy with the service. But it actually indicates the opposite. It's like they care enough about your products to actually try and fix their share, not just leave.

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00:13:55 Tom: Exactly. You've been in business for a long time. You might remember the time where we had discussions when a ticket came into an help desk called the support, support that we should look at the ticket, whether it was a positive or a negative ticket to see how we should use it in calculating whatever KPI that we were calculating. Well today, I fully agree with you that whatever the ticket is, positive or negative, it is a positive, it is a positive data point in your customer relationship. Yeah. I fully agree on that.

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00:14:25 Andrew: Absolutely. I think definitely there are some models that still include them as like in the health scores and as concerns. But yeah, I like over the course of almost over 200 episodes now on the show, I think come to [inaudible] really, really positive--

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00:14:40 Tom: Yeah. You know, but, but talking about customer support and help desks. Last week I had a long conversation with the former partner success director. I've never heard that title before, but his title was a partner success director at Selligent, which is one of the former companies I used to work for. They are in online marketing sales business. And he said, "You know, Tom," he said he had been working at that company for 19 years. He left it now. And he said, "I've always been surprised how little people use their support ticket data. There's so much information in there." People tell me, Hey, his name is Greg. He said,  "Hey Greg, we don't have data on the product experience. We should do a survey or we should do end product. We should put some code in our product so that we get end product information." He said, "Yeah, that's all true, but you check your tickets that you analyze your tickets that you bother doing that." He said there's so much information in there for the product experience, the customer experience, the way we handle our customers, but also the customer success. And he said so many companies don't do that. And that's a pity.

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00:15:53 Andrew: Yeah. I'm pretty sure a lot of companies are gonna start taking advantages now, especially with the likes of GPD for coming out and the way it can classify and summarize is incredible. There's quite a few different tools popping up now. I really liked the layout and format that you put together these... the data as well in terms of the metrics where you have actions going down, looking at, so some of the actions you've highlighted here in the metrics just for listeners going down on one access you have onboarding user adoption, customer journey, customer attention, churn risk, commercial activities. So these are just different actions. And then across on the Y axis you've got things like usage data or onboarding and training participation, CSAT, NPS, which we are discussing and interesting just how you sort of mapped out the different metrics against the different stages or the different actions by customers. I think it's an interesting way for CS teams to easily align within the company and understand, okay, which stage, which KPIs are we looking at? It's not just one KPI overall. There may be one that's, this all goes back to your attention, but yeah,

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00:16:58 Tom: Because in the matrix what you are missing is the timeline dimension 'cuz as you just mentioned, depending on the stage you are in this might or, or this will evolve. Now the timeline dimension isn't the framework, so this is why it's not in the matrix. We wanted to keep the matrix as simple as possible so that we could use it in front of a large audience whether you are a marketer or a customer success person, the CEO or an engineer. It would all make sense to them. So... 

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00:17:26 Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. The, the timeline is also an interesting like phenomenon in the sense that like one of the best quotes, and I need to remember he said this cuz I've quoted it a few times, but in terms of the experience from the end user, like when they come to your product, what their expectations and the problems that they face on day one are completely different to the problems and expectations that they face on day 365. When they come to you originally, they have a problem, they have a pain, they need to solve it, and then your product does a great job of that. That's why they end up sticking with you. But then over time they grow in their knowledge, they become more sophisticated, their problems start to grow with them. So understanding that at different stages in your customer's life cycle, that there are different KPIs and different metrics that you're going to need to be optimizing against and or different use cases that you're gonna need to be growing them into within the product. And I think a lot, oftentimes we just look at sort of this binary metric of activation or retention, but we don't take the time into consideration as well of our users. So we, however, retention metric, but that's like they spread across an entire user bases not looking at different stages and different times in their journey as well. Which is another great way to sort of break up your analysis and try to understand, 

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00:18:36 Tom: Yeah. But that remark is fully correct and this is why we added a set of actions to the best set of actions customers can apply and we called it friction hunting. Cause friction hunting is exactly that. It's throughout your entire customer life cycle. You try to hunt all the frictions your customer has with your service or your product and try to improve that. And that might be very small things. That might be huge thing, I don't know. But just the other day we had a customer that basically did not give the possibility to their customers to get after the purchase a receipt in the app, although it was a very little change. So something somebody came up with that it wasn't even an employee. It was not even a customer and they added it to that and it seems like customers really liked it.

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00:19:27 Tom: So we call that friction hunting. It's a continuous thing. And Netflix is a nice example of that. Okay. Today they, maybe they might be asleep a bit, but let's go back 10 years when Netflix came on the market, they would continuously improve the way you would be using Netflix. Nobody has to take a Netflix course. Everybody knows how to use Netflix. And you know, they are a very good example of how friction hunting leads almost to perfection. Although we know that perfection does not exist, obviously. But yeah,

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00:20:01 Andrew: It definitely doesn't. Nice. So this is obviously sort of the data that you got together to try and analyze the different stages. And you mentioned at the beginning like you helped companies with a framework and bring them into it, this is the measurement part. What does the framework typically look like with companies? Like let's say you go to a new company, early stage wanting to get things set up. What does the first three months look like at that company?

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00:20:26 Tom: Well, that is the whole thing. Normally when, when you would get a consulting company, it would probably take typically 90 days before they would come up with a proposal, what you should be doing. Our framework allows you to do it pretty rapidly. And that is because we basically use three parameters, three dimensions. One obviously is the ease of use or the complexity if you wish of your product or service. The second one is the maturity of your organization. Not so much of your customer, but of your organization. And the third one is the customer engagement is your company, is your industry in industry where there's a lot of customer engagement or not. And based upon those three parameters, if you do the math, you have like eight quadrants, right? Well, depending on what quadrants you are in, we will give you best set of actions to start with.

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00:21:13 Tom: Because in the end, that's what it's all about. Especially if you are a startup, scale up, you have to prioritize, you have to focus. Resources are limited. And of course we want to do everything. We want to do the onboarding, right? And we want to make sure that sales passes it on in the right way to services. And we want to make sure that the customer experience is right and we wanna do everything right from the beginning, but your resources are limited. You can't do that. So you have to focus and if you focus, you won't have result. And that's what the framework is about. So we wouldn't even need three months to start working on that. On day one, we sit around the table, we listen to your pain, and then we take a look at where are you on this access on this customer cross, where are you? What should be your best set of actions? Are you already doing some of those actions? Do we need to improve them? And then we take it from there. And then obviously we use the right KPIs. Now that we've done the research, we do use the right KPIs.

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00:22:13 Andrew: Interesting. So you'd come to a company quite easily, they don't understand, okay. Depending on the size of the company, the maturity, if they're high-touch or low-touch, like the key productions and then you're typically working with them from there. What's one of the most surprising things you've learned, like going into new companies over the last couple of years?

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00:22:34 Tom: What is one of the most surprising? I think one of the most surprising things is that ji when they start talking about customer success,  first of all, only people in customer success talk about customer success. That's my experience and anybody else calls it differently, but that doesn't matter. Once people start talking about customer success, they tend to forget that it's all about the success and they start focusing on the risks. Oh yeah, we want to detect churn risks. We need to avoid bad customer retention. We need to avoid CS. No, you should focus on success, focus on the success of your customer. And people tend to forget that. And that's something that often surprises me. To be honest, it took me a while as well to make this mind switch. And it's something, if I had known this in the very beginning, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have lost so much time in a lot of my former jobs and roles because we focus too much on the risks and not so much on the successes. Which is I think a paradox because it's called customer success. You shouldn't focus on the success, not on the risks.

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00:23:49 Andrew: Exactly. No, this is definitely like one of the, the biggest takeaways from the show that everybody you typically mentions is realization that everyone starts off like, we have a problem with churn or retention, let's go and speak to customers that have left. But in actuality, it's all about like making sure you activate users effectively, you get them onboarded correctly and you're focusing then on like, how do you get more people to the success date as opposed to less people to the end state,  where you don't wanna be. Yeah, yeah.

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00:24:19 Tom: Because we don't. I don't know what your experience is, Andrew, but my experience is that a lot of customers, if we ask our customers what is success for your customer, you get a very blurry answer. But it usually boils down to one thing. They don't really know. They don't really know. And unless there is a very formal sign off, like it used to be in the old days when you had on-premise installations, there was a real sign off with a physical paper where customers would say, yes, I agree that everything works the way we wanted it to work. Unless that is there, they usually don't even have that, which is a pity cuz it's not always that difficult to define what is customer success? When will my customer have this feeling of yes, I have been successful with your product or your service. Yeah. And that's very important.

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00:25:11 Andrew: And I think going back to sort of like the metrics earlier you mentioned like usage being one of them, but I think this is probably the key one is if you can really get to the point where you're able to effectively measure how successful your customer is with your product service like that is the holy grail of understanding because ultimately they come with your payment problem, they're looking to try and achieve something. And if you can measure what the end result is in achieving and like for different companies and different products and services, different things. And we had a great episode with  Heidi Gibson from GoDaddy. We were talking about just this and they were able to sort of measure if in the beginning they were people come to us for websites, like if they credit the websites that's success. But like no, actually that isn't, they don't come to you to create a website. They come to you to get bookings to drive sales to and figuring what that art is for your customer and finding a way to measure it is the ultimate.

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00:26:03 Tom: I think that the example you just mentioned is one. I remember the episode and the example was really good cuz it, he said, yeah, we were measuring if people had their website up and running within, I don't know, a month or two months after signing the contract. But actually, people wanted to sell things through us. They didn't care about the website. Did my sales go up or not? And that's exactly the point. So the real success for the customer is, did my sales go up? Not was my website up and running within four weeks.

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00:26:35 Andrew: Yeah. And I think that's like another good example as well is like you can go and purchase like the new sales platform,  out there and the platform itself, all it really does is like help you make more calls and be a little bit more efficient and you can go and give metrics and say 80% of your users are using our products, they're making 20% more calls. And, but those metrics are pretty useless because the only reason they came to us to drive more sales. So like, if you're able to effectively measure that and have a way to connect back into the product.

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00:27:02 Tom: Oh, yep. I remember when my time at Selligent, I was customer service responsible, so I was not responsible for the product and we were doing online marketing tools, right? So I'm talking 2009, 2010. So ages ago, right? When perhaps what was two was just born right. And our goal was yeah, to set up as soon as possible the marketing platform to get the first email out and the Marketeer, he would have like this,  marketing generated leads KPI in the back of his mind and probably he would share that with us. So, and we would be looking at that, but then, for the renewal of the contract, you would be sitting in front of the CEO and the CFO and the CEO only would say like, "Tom, this platform causes a rib out of our body. It didn't bring us anything. I'm sorry." Yeah. But we have so many marketing generated leads might be so, but sales didn't go up. So what are you doing here? So yeah, and this is why I focusing on successes and knowing what success is for your customer is so important.

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00:28:08 Andrew: Absolutely. Yeah. See, we running up on time. I wanna make sure have time for a couple of questions I ask every guest, let's imagine hypothetical scenario. You join a new company, churn and retention's not doing well at this company. This here comes to you and says, Hey Tom, you've got 90 days to turn this around. You're in charge. What do you do? The trick is you're not gonna tell me I'm gonna speak to customers. You're not gonna look at data, you're just gonna pick a tactic that you've seen effective at a previous company and run with it blindly hoping it works in this environment that you're in. What you do?

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00:28:39 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Well, just like anybody else, I will tell you that 90 days is a very short period of time. Yeah. But at Customer Cross, we strongly believe in focus and prioritize the right set of right set of action. So definitely you should have to do that. So that's the number one thing to do. But I also believe you should focus in terms of customers, right? You only have 90 days, your resources are limited. So prioritize also on your custom customers, not just on your actions. And what I mean by that is we all have some sort of segmentation in our customers. We have ABC customers or green, yellow, red customers. You know, the ones that are doing well, the ones that are in danger, focus on the yellow ones, focus on the yellow ones because you will have the biggest chance with less effort to get more results. The green ones are okay, the red ones probably will demand a lot of effort, maybe not, maybe not, but focus on the yellow one, focus on the actions you will do and focus on the customers. You only have 90 days and your resources are limited. That would be my advice.

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00:29:45 Andrew: Make it happen. Interesting. And what's one thing that you know today about channel retention that you wish in knew when you got started with your career?

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00:29:53 Tom: When I started my career? Well, I'm just gonna repeat what I said 10 minutes ago. Just like anybody else in customer success, I tended to focus on, on the risks and not on the success. If I had understood that from the beginning that you should focus on the success of your customer, I would have saved so much time and so much effort. And remember, I was in situations, I was a project manager at that time for implementation at customer sites where I was like, "Hey, what is your problem? We delivered the platform within time and budget and you are not happy. Why are you not happy?" And that was because I focused on the wrong things. I focused on limiting the risks rather than delivering the success the customer was expecting. So my advice or the learning would be focus on the success, not on the risks.

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00:30:48 Andrew: On risks. Yeah. Very nice. Well, Tom, it's been a pleasure having you on the show today. Is there any sort of final thoughts you wanna leave the listeners with or anything they should be aware of or how to keep up to speed with your work?

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00:31:00 Tom: Oh, we're active on LinkedIn, which is the most obvious platform. And to find us other socials as well. But basically LinkedIn, you go to Customer Cross or Cornewal Consult.  There's only one Tom Cornewal in the world, so you can't miss me. At least if you, at my knowledge, there's only one. So if there is another one, please let me know. Feel free to reach out. So yeah, LinkedIn would probably be the easiest way, or our website, which is customercross.com.

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00:31:25 Andrew: Awesome. Well, yeah, thanks so much for joining today and wish you best of luck now on your new adventure.

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00:31:31 Tom: Thank you so much for having us, Andrew, and good luck.

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00:31:34 Andrew: Thank you. Cheers.

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00:31:37 Andrew: And that's a wrap for the show today with me, Andrew, Michael. I really hope you enjoyed it and you're able to pull out something valuable for your business. To keep up to date with Churn.fm and be notified about new episodes, blog posts, and more, subscribe to our mailing list by visiting Churn.fm. Also, don't forget to subscribe to our show on iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you have any feedback, good or bad, I would love to hear from you and you can provide your blunt direct feedback by sending it to Andrew at Churn.fm. Lastly, but most importantly, if you enjoyed this episode, please share it and leave a review as it really helps get the word out and grow the community. Thanks again for listening. See you again next week.

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