Andrew Michael: [00:00:00] hi, ward. Welcome to the show.

Ward Sandler: [00:00:02] Hey, Andrew. Thanks for having me.

Andrew Michael: [00:00:04] It's a pleasure for listeners. What is the CEO and cofounder of member space? A no code platform that allows anyone to turn the website into a membership business. A member space has helped thousands of website owners to set up subscription business and generate millions of dollars in recurring revenue.

Prior to member space. What owned a web development agency? We actually member space formed out of due to recurring requests for membership features on their client's sites. My first question for you. What is after building a platform to help anyone get started with the subscription business? What would you say is the biggest point of failure for first time subscription business owners?

Ward Sandler: [00:00:39] Yeah. that's a good question. I don't think there is an obvious answer, but one thing that I've definitely found is that you're probably going to need a decent size audience. if you don't have, for example, just general conversion rates, right? if you get 10 people that are following what you're posting and your email list, If you want, 10% of them [00:01:00] to convert, that's only one person.

If you have a hundred people, that's 10 people. If you have a thousand people, that's a hundred people. So having a decent size audience or a following that cares about what you're doing and getting that set up before you launch is a really important thing to do. It's not. Absolutely necessary.

There's definitely examples out there of people that have built it as they launched. But in general, we found the most successful site owners generally have some kind of audience built up first.

Andrew Michael: [00:01:26] Cool. And so let's just talk through a little bit about the types of customers for a bit more context.

When you talk about the audience size. So what I got from the site, as well as you, it looks like you get a lot of content creators, course builders, this sort of. Types of businesses trying to get up and building recurring businesses. is there any other types of customers that you work with that are using your platform to, allow them to build a membership business?

Ward Sandler: [00:01:52] Yeah. I like to think of it like a box of Legos is the analogy I give. So it's like a random box of Legos that you can put together wherever you. And that's what we are, because at the [00:02:00] end of the day, what we're doing is protecting any pages of your existing website. So what you put behind the page is up to you and it could be anything.

So we have folks like not-for-profits who use member space to protect like their meeting minutes after each meeting. And, there's only like 10 folks that are even members and they're free, just so you know, Members of the board that can log in and things like that, all the way up to folks and have like gigantic video libraries on their website that only members can access, for a hundred dollars a month.

So it really sucks any kind of business where there's going to be a content that only members should be able to see whether that's for free or paid.

Andrew Michael: [00:02:38] Yep. And then as well, what I got from the sites is that you're really trying to help people build longterm, sustainable businesses as well through this membership economy.

Now, what are some of the things you think about when it comes to building a sustainable subscription business? And obviously you must speak to a lot of these business owners themselves. what sort of advice are you giving them? When they're getting set up to begin with, to think a [00:03:00] little bit longterm for their business.

Ward Sandler: [00:03:03] Yeah. two of the big ones is pricing, right? Choosing pricing. That actually makes sense. when you do the back of the napkin calculation of be like, all right. If I got a hundred customers who are paying me X, what would that amount of revenue be? And is that enough revenue for me to actually support a hundred people, right?

Like what I actually to be able to provide good quality support and everything I promised in my marketing website, if I got that amount of revenue. Because a lot of people are under pricing and if they start, if they actually did the math, I'm like, wow, what if this took off? And I got a thousand people, what I'm charging, I wouldn't be able to support them.

I wouldn't be able to afford. To hire a support person to help me I'd have to do it all myself. And so you're essentially creating a monster before you even started. so just thinking through the math of what you're charging and does that scale up and make sense. and then the other big factor, hat tip to the show is churn, right?

Paying attention to. Why people are leaving, why they're canceling, why they're having issues, getting value. [00:04:00] that is a forever problem, as I'm sure you're aware that you have to always be figuring out and running experiments on. but yeah, it's something to be paying attention to from the jump and having a system, a systematic way of addressing it each month.

Andrew Michael: [00:04:13] Yeah. So I think you've touched on two very important topics there and I'm actually interested. Cause I think like from a pricing perspective, I think this is one of the things, whether it be like a membership that you're trying to put yourself through subscription or SaaS business, I think when companies get started out, they often leave Pricing for the last thought. And it's just like randomly, let's go out there, see what anyone else is doing and tackling on a price. and this often more than not, like it leaves a lot of opportunity left on the table. I'm interested like yourself at member space. Like how did you go about figuring out your pricing and packaging to begin with?

Ward Sandler: [00:04:47] Yeah. And it's still a work in progress. And just to add a caveat here, when I say with pricing to really think through how it's going to work, it's not something that you should be spending like months and months figuring out it shouldn't be a reason to delay launching. [00:05:00] it is more important to get out there and just get started and start getting right.

Feedback from real people, regardless of the price, because whatever you launch with, you're going to change anyway, no matter. but it's more about thinking through Azure evolving the price. Is this actually making sense and will it scale up, yeah. To get back to your question about, how do we think about pricing at member space?

So we've definitely changed it a bunch over time, and I'm sure it'll change again in the future. It's one of those things that you're always thinking about and always. second guessing yourself, is this the right way to do it? Is this optimal? how much money am I leaving on the table?

Do I want to leave money on the table? that's another thing, leaving money on the table, not necessarily charging the most amount possible. That can be a good thing because it builds up Goodwill with people. it gives them more tolerance in terms of if there's a mistake or an issue with the software, not getting so mad.

Cause they feel like they have so much value they're getting anyway, it's worth it. And it also will help more people maybe sign up. Start using the software. so finding that sweet spot where, you [00:06:00] know, you're making enough profit for this to make sense. And people feel like they're getting a, a good deal.

There's good value. I think that's where you want to be. at least that's how we think about it. We're not trying to optimize for every possible set we could get out of people. but yeah, we've thought about pricing it's really evolved, like with, when you think about a membership, Everyone thinks, okay, when you pricing. You should be thinking about what's your value metric, right. And for us, most people would probably guess while all the value metric would be the number of members you have. and that's what we thought too. And that's how we used to price. We used to have a bucket of, up to a hundred members was this price up to 300 members, was that price, et cetera.

And we would just auto upgrade you as you got more members like how MailChimp and other services do it, but that ended up not being a good value metric because. The problem is a member is not a member on one side is not necessarily the same as one member on a different site. So for example, if I have a freemium kind of an option where, most of my members are free and then I, the best ones, I try to get them to opt into a hundred dollars a month.

let's [00:07:00] say a resource library, All my members, I might have a hundred members, but if 90 of them are free, that's not the same as another business that has a hundred members where all of them are paying. members became a bad indicator of value and it would annoy people sometimes.

Cause they'd be like, most of my members are free, but I have a hundred members and I'm going to upgrade, but I don't feel like I'm getting enough value yet. So it became tricky. So that's where we switched things. but I think. About two years ago to focusing more on a transaction fees, it has its own kind of downsides, right?

People don't like the idea of paying transaction fees. Some of the we've heard people say things like that. It feels you're taking money from me, which. if you're charging money for anything right. Even a month. So you just a general monthly subscription, you're still taking money from people.

So I never really understood that logic exactly. But we found that by traveling action fees, it's more aligned with value, right? So if you're generating a thousand dollars and we're taking say 2%, that's the same. That's the same. Relative amount as if someone's charging a 10,000, [00:08:00] we're taking 2%, it's it feels a bit more even, and it aligns better with, you're where your revenue's at.

and it allows us to charge less monthly so that you can self select to be on a lower monthly charge, higher transaction fee plan, or higher monthly charge, a lower transaction fee plan.

Andrew Michael: [00:08:18] Yeah. And then you automatically have expansion built into that juice sheet, to the nature of your businesses as your customers become more successful, you become more successful.

I re I really like as well, like the focus that you mentioned, like the value metric, and I think this is something as well, again, like early days, you don't really understand the importance of this and you just sometimes mock process and features and you put together a package, but really taking the time to think about psych what.

Is the main value that your customer is getting out of your service and trying to, and your pricing as close to that as possible is always going to be the best way. That's something I haven't actually talked about on the podcast. One of the reasons for starting the show myself, was to experiment and start my next company.

And yeah, one of the ways I'm actually going about doing that [00:09:00] is, doing pricing studies to begin with. So whenever I have come to a point where I feel I've got something of substance, I've been spinning up a landing page, putting together surveys and really pricing and packaging surveys is really just trying to understand, okay, what would the willingness to pay be for some, a product like this and what would the likelihood to buy?

this is like a methodology. I think price intelligently, works a lot with this, for those as well, we had in previous founders. So Patrick, but it's just really interesting process to take. I think even from day one is just really trying to send a care, what is it in the market for a product or service like this, and then, Gives you an idea as well of what the value metric is what would people want to be charged for the service and then going into from day one and you know, okay, the market at least is giving me signals.

Now I need to go and build that MVP and tested with paying customers. But it's something I think it can be done even before you have a product to really understand the market and where you can be positioning yourself when you actually do build a product.

Ward Sandler: [00:09:58] Yeah, I agree.

Andrew Michael: [00:09:59] yeah. [00:10:00] And then the next thing, so jumping then off the, you mentioned like churn and retention, being something that you recommend your customers really start to think about early and focus.

what are some of the things that you're working with them on and trying to educate them to do in terms of this? So I think from a membership business as well, Perhaps a little different to a SaaS business typically, where you're paying for like that software as a service where it's more of an entertainment factor maybe, or more of an education factor with your customers, but

what are you trying to do to educate? Yeah. Them to help increase retention with their customers.

Ward Sandler: [00:10:39] Yeah. So a big thing that I try to espouse to speak with your customer, which sounds like obvious, right? But the amount of people who actually get on a zoom call and talk to an actual customer of theirs every week, that percentage is a lot lower than I think people realize, And there's, tons of reasons, some of them really good for why that is right.

Some people are [00:11:00] shy. Some people don't like hearing potentially negative feedback from somebody. sometimes people feel like they're too busy to do things like that, or there's better uses of their time. But in my opinion, I don't think there's a better use of your time than actually talking with your customer.

And or prospect, about your system and helping them get set up or answering things, questions that are confusing to them, or maybe strategizing parts of their business model with them. So I've done all those kinds of things. And I do these kinds of calls every day, with customers. and I think it's something that is relatively low barrier to entry for anyone to start with, especially.

when you're first starting your business, right? Like you don't have a ton of customer support, so you should have some free time available. And so you should be spending that time talking with the future. People that initially are signing up and the ones that are the new customers and end legacy customers just getting on the phone and making sure that everything is working, how it's expected.

Seeing where the glaring issues are in terms of onboarding, in terms of, what were they [00:12:00] expecting that they're not getting in terms of maybe what part of your website is confusing or not clear, in terms of what part of your pricing, maybe doesn't quite right rather than the right way or your upgrade, the upgrade, the next highest plan is, does it make sense to them?

Like all those kinds of nuance variables that are going to exist in any business? A lot of the information is hard to get out a survey. we found at least, and I find it's better to just have anecdotal conversations with people and eventually trends and insights, just bubble up over and over again.

And it becomes obvious what to focus on in terms of what to fix or what to change.

Andrew Michael: [00:12:37] Yeah, nothing can substitute speaking to customers. for sure. I liked it went to dark maybe like in the early days when you don't have much business like support and all these other issues on such a big thing. So maybe spending a Tumblr really to get to know and understand.

I think one of the biggest problems as well with customer research and speaking to customers is often, this is what happens is like the early days you tend to set and speak to a lot of [00:13:00] customers. And then slowly over time as the company grows, like you get further and further detached from them. and you still live with those biases that you had when you got started.

and you probably start to lose track over time. So I'm interested like now into the company, Probably two, three years member space, maybe longer. I'm not sure, but how have you yourself, maintained and kept these conversations up to? You mentioned you have these conversations all the time, but how are you managing to do this  now as you've built the company out.

Ward Sandler: [00:13:29] Yeah. at this point we've been around since 2015, so it has been a little while. and yeah, that entire time I have been doing, phone calls and now more we've switched to zoom calls. the way I keep it up is basically, when our support team is talking with the customer and if they're having like a particular issue or they just.

It's just something that would be better discussed, via zoom instead of via email, we just have them send my Calendly link over to them, and then they just Joel call within a time slot that works for my schedule. So that's part of how I make it work. Cause obviously, I'm relatively busy, during the [00:14:00] week, nothing crazy, but, you want people to work around your schedule.

So I, block out certain time periods throughout the day that people can schedule the call. Fluctuated with the volume in terms of how many calls I'll do per day. I used to be crazy and do four, four of them a day. And that was a lot on top of everything else you're doing in your day.

So I've recently limited it to around one or two a day, and that seems to be a better cadence. but yeah, just. Sending people a link and making it clear that yeah, you can schedule this. And we actually previously used to just have the link right. On our website. And, so eventually that kind of got a little overwhelming in terms of that volume.

So we had to scale that back. and before that we actually had a phone number right on our website that would go right to our support team. We had to scale that back eventually too, because eventually you just get too much volume, that the team isn't able to help. As many customers as quickly because the time's being taken up by people that are booking these things over and over again.

So by doing it, I'm more of a case by case basis. like we're doing now, we find that works better, but when you're first starting the school, [00:15:00] problems I'm talking about don't affect you. So you should be making it right. Really easy for people to get in touch with you and really easy for them to schedule a call.

I think that would be something everybody can do and everybody should do. Yeah, I don't see a downside to it. Especially in the beginning, you really need to get information from your people. Yeah,

Andrew Michael: [00:15:16] I liked that. Just even having the telephone number on the site, is that something you very rarely see, even from real estate startups, but at that point in times, like when you really need to be speaking to customers the most, so in the next topic I'm actually interested in chatting about, is, a couple of things I wanted to do talk about is one is like we had a recent guest panels from learn world and, They were actually seeing really good headwinds in the lights of COVID now and the situation in terms of a lot more people going online and starting online courses through them.

Is this something as some of the trends you've seen now with the more and more people really trying to build a subscription businesses and get them into services online, have you seen any of this, caught in coating of the headwinds yourselves?

[00:16:00] Ward Sandler: [00:16:00] Yeah. we've seen a huge surge, close to 10 X, each month compared to what we were doing pre COVID.

So starting in like March, April. Yeah. So we have definitely had a surge and it makes sense, More and more people. Are trying to bring their business online. especially folks who had traditional brick and mortar type stuff, like gyms or yoga studios, you've had a lot of those kinds of folks move on over.

Cause it's yeah, you have to go online. And so I would imagine all of the platforms out there that allow you to have an online business, especially like content or courses. I would imagine they're all surging right now. Cause everyone's scrambling to find a solution.

Andrew Michael: [00:16:38] Yeah, absolutely.

I even, the podcast itself has seen a big surge since things started getting messy. But yeah, so actually one of the other areas to chat about today quickly was, coming across member space. As I mentioned earlier, like starting to try and build something next, I've been putting together landing pages and I started using web flow.

and I was literally blown [00:17:00] away by what's available now in the no code space and nothing. That's how it came across member space actually, because you had. to templates, correct me if I'm wrong. on, web flows library, I found it as well earlier today, but how do you see that evolution of the no-code space going?

And what part do you think you will be playing in it?

Ward Sandler: [00:17:20] Yeah. In the, I think the temple you're referring to is probably in like the showcase area in Webflow. Yeah. yeah, we've made, I think three templates at this point that people can clone for free about flow. So feel free to check those out. You can just search for member space or membership template.

but yeah, in terms of where I see the no code going right, and where we fit. it's a good question. I think no code is still a loose. Term, it means different things to different people. And a lot of people, even though for folks who maybe are more in the tech world and more, especially in the tech, Twitter and stuff, no code is like a very known, yeah, no codes, the whole thing.

There's a whole community. There's lots of people building things with no code. But I think what's important to remember is [00:18:00] that is definitely a bit of a bubble. The, I'd say the vast majority of people out there, especially entrepreneurs have no idea what no-code is. And I have never heard that term.

if you're running a yoga studio or gym, you probably have never heard of no code, but you still have an online, membership business and you need no code tools. And generally what we see ourselves fitting in yeah. Is just in the people who are less tech savvy, or not really as tech interested, if you want to use that phrase, people who just want to make it work right.

And just focus on their business. They're not really interested in creating some crazy. Frankenstein, no code software tool. They just want things to work. They want people to pay them money to get access to their website, where they have some zoom videos that they update each week or something like that.

those are the kinds of people that I think there's way more of those kind of folks. that just want. Easy solutions that work, and especially that have good support, that the support aspect of member space, that's really our number one feature because people just [00:19:00] need help. Right?

There's technology can be complicated, even no code sometimes, especially no code because you're cobbling together. So many tools that have dependencies interact with each other. It can actually get pretty darn complicated. and so yeah, being able to help people think through their business model, think through the layout of their website, think through how to integrate member space in the right way, just You have to think through integrating any system, providing support is something that we really pride ourselves on. It's something that we're actually really trying to double down on. and I think that will be helpful for the no-code folks out there as it gets, because as no-code grows, there's more and more possibilities of what could be a no-code site, As the possibilities grow as the potential for what you could make with no code grows. I think it's going to get it makes it more complicated because there's more options. There's more things that could plug in and work together. So having somebody who understands all the options and then knowing how to put it all together, I think having that kind of in between is really important.

Andrew Michael: [00:19:53] Yeah, definitely. It's almost getting to a point. It becomes Lego blocks and second tier. But I do see as well, what you're saying, [00:20:00] when you start to connect with these Lego blocks, eventually you get lost and lose track of like how they all working in interacting with one another and probably troubleshooting and trying to figure out where something's going wrong.

We'll get difficult to have a time as well. I wonder if somebody is really trying to, I'm not sure wonder probably somebody is already trying to solve this problem, for others as well. The next thing I ask every guest to join the show. I'd love to hear your opinion on this as well is let's imagine a hypothetical scenario now that you joined a new company and turn our attention is not great graded this company.

And the CEO has come to you and said, we need to turn things around and they've asked you to try and make a dent in it, but they want to see results in 90 days. what would be some of the things that you would want to be doing in those first 90 days?

Ward Sandler: [00:20:47] So aside from what I had mentioned earlier, so I'll cheat here and give you two answers.

But, aside from what I said earlier, in terms of making it easy for customers to contact you and set up calls, one thing we found really helps is having a [00:21:00] cancellation alternatives, right? So what I mean by that is somebody goes to, click cancel within their account, for your subscription, right to your site.

and instead of just straight up saying, okay, you're canceled, giving them a few options. So not this isn't saying you're not going to hide cancellation. Are you still cancel? But saying, listen, before you cancel, do you want to try one of these alternatives and something alternatives that we provide via member space and that we think are good in general, for people to try to provide our number one.

Hey, do you just need to contact support? are you just frustrated and you're clicking, cancel. Cause you couldn't find how to figure out how to contact support. So we provide that as an option as an alternative. another one is a coupon discount, right? Hey, instead of canceling, how about we just give you 50% off or a hundred percent off your next month payment.

So like positive thing, a subscription. and then, the last one would be if you have a trial, right? If you have a trial on your subscription, giving people the option to extend their trial, instead of canceling, like if they're currently in a trial. Cause a lot of times we found at least.

People just need more time, right? There is nothing [00:22:00] really about your software. They don't like, or whatever, nothing to do with you. It's just their life. They're busy that I'm going around to it. They don't want to get charged, so they're canceling, but by offering the ability to extend the amount of time they have with your software, oftentimes that'll stop people from canceling.

So we found that makes a big difference for us in terms of helping our churn and helping our customers turn.

Andrew Michael: [00:22:20] Yeah. Yeah. Those are interesting points as well. I think like the one is a trial period. I think that's definitely a variable. The point is that people are busy and, they might not get around to that immediately.

Like they might've signed up for your service and then somebody walks into the office or they got distracted by someone at home and then they might just completely forget for a few days. But, it's nice giving the extension. The other thing you mentioned as well was like poisoning subscription, I think is very interesting.

and something as well, I think typically, like when we think about general retention, maybe the. It's maybe one of the last series you'd want to focus on when somebody has already made that active decision, because the return on investment will be much better served, like focusing earlier [00:23:00] on in the activation flow, but it's still is very effective.

I think actually Hotjar when covered, really hits in, we quickly reacted to it and we put in, like a activation flow towards the end or out. Sedation. I know what you want to call it, but an exit flow and we offered to pause and I was actually really surprised by the amount of customers that reactivated, I think we gave two months, pause, and then you needed to reactivate it, but it was actually incredible.

The amount of customers we ended up saving just from that small little, addition to our exit flow. but yeah, so another thing I wanted to ask as well then is What's one thing now that the business side, what five years now? what's one thing that you wish you knew about gender and retention. when you first got started that you now know today.

Ward Sandler: [00:23:51] Yeah. if I had to pick one, I would say it relates back to how we started the conversation about thinking about your pricing. so we, when we [00:24:00] originally had been, not originally when we've been experimenting with pricing, one thing we experimented with was not having a fixed length trial.

So like right now, we have a 14 day trial, if you want to start member space, on any of our plans. but we experimented with the idea of, what if we just gave people, five free members, like unlimited trial kind of freemium style. So you get up to five free members before you have to pay anything.

in theory, we thought that made a lot of sense, right? Cause. People can take their time to get set up. you can try the software with no risks, no worry about being charged until you're successful. And that all made sense in theory. but what we found and we actually ran this experiment for, I think it was like close to six months, was that it created a way for people to not get their stuff together, not to not execute and to not move forward with their business.

They would just stagnate. Yeah, exactly. There was no urgency. so a lot of times people say, Oh, a 14 day trial, a 30 day trial, whatever. These are just completely arbitrary time periods relative to what people need to do to get set up. and that's [00:25:00] true, so as a five member free trial, right?

So any everything's pretty much arbitrary if you think about, but what we found though is by having a fixed length of time trial, and I think this is why it's such a standard throughout software of having a fixed length time period. Exactly. Usually 14 days is because it's spurs people to action.

It. Forces you to say, you know what? You have to gotta get going. You got to either launch or launch and it gets people to do something. Cause they know they're going to get charged at the end of it. And that motivation is hard to underestimate. Like you really need, people need that, right?

Because launching a business onto anything new. It's a whole thing, right? You've got to get your website ready. You got to get email marketing ready. You got to get the content ready. You got to get your business account set up. there's all these things you gotta do. and everyone's busy.

Everyone's got a million things going on in life, especially these days. giving people some kind of an incentive, some kind of a push in a gentle way in a non forcing way, but a push to, Hey, let's get going. We found that's really important. And I think that's something that's important for the people [00:26:00] to pay attention to too, is the, No, the fixed lifetime trial.

Andrew Michael: [00:26:03] Yeah. It's definitely very interesting that urgency. I think also like when people first sign up your service, it's the most attention you're ever going to get from them. And by reducing that urgency for them to get started and give them that extra motivation to actually do something, then I think. The longer, the time goes, the less likely they are to actually do something with your service.

Actually, one of the episodes I've enjoyed the most and the stories I've enjoyed the most around experimentation when it comes to onboarding was, Jenna Buster from ProdPad and the pipette team. And what I love about their story is they actually experimented with shortening the trial period. And, I think they first maybe had a 30 day trial period or 15 day trial period.

And they said, what if we cut that in half? I think it was 30 days to start. they cut it in half and they saw that their conversion rate doubled and they were like, okay, if we cut it in half again, and they're cut in half again. So about seven days. And again, this one increase in their conversion rates.

[00:27:00] and like I thought that was a really interesting story that goes to what you're saying is one times urgency. But then what they did was something even clever after that is they then gamified the, process for the trial and they incentivized users with. Extra trial days by doing key actions that they wanted them to do in the app.

if it was a product management software, like the first thing that you needed to do was to create your first task. If you did that, you get, you got an extra day in your trial, invited five team members. You've got an extra five days. If you added your credit card, you got an extra 10, and really using.

The trial is a way to motivate their users, to actually take the key actions they want to in the app, but also in the first case, but actually reducing that period. So they had that extra urgency to get motivated, to get doing things that was really great. I have yet to maybe see somebody else a experiment like this, but I'd love to hear if there's anybody else has any other stories, please share.

Ward Sandler: [00:27:51] Yeah, that's a really clever kind of gamification way of doing a trial. It's sounds complicated from a dev perspective, but, it definitely sounds [00:28:00] interesting. it sounds like that worked for them, right?

Andrew Michael: [00:28:02] Absolutely. It did. Yeah. I think that's it for today would see we've run up on a time, but is there any sort of final thoughts that you want to leave the listeners with before we go?

How can they keep up to speed with what you're working on? Any last tips?

Ward Sandler: [00:28:17] Yeah, so you can find us memberspace.com and you can find us on Twitter at @memberspace. You can find me I'm @wardsandler on Twitter. So feel free to do a DM me, or if you want to send me an email, I'm always happy to help answer people's questions.

It's just ward@memberspace.com.

Andrew Michael: [00:28:38] Awesome. thanks so much for joining the show today. I really appreciate the time and wish best of luck going forward.

Ward Sandler: [00:28:45] Thanks, Andrew.

Andrew Michael: [00:28:46] Cheers.

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