[00:00:00] Ziv Peled: One of the most important things for people, doesn't matter if you're an individual contributor or leader, even a senior leader, is always finding the blend between the things that matters and the things that are in your control. But I think that the majority of things that you should work on should be in that overlap. Make sure that you are doing things that are in your control, that matters.

[00:00:30] VO: How do you build a habit-forming products? And you saw this different... Don't just gun for revenue in the door.

[00:00:35] Andrew Michael: This is CHURN.FM, the podcast for subscription economy pros. Each week, we hear how the world's fastest growing companies are tackling churn and using retention to fuel their growth.

[00:00:47] VO: How do you build a habit-forming products? We crossed over that magic threshold to negative churn. You need to invest in customer success. It always comes down to retention and engagement. Completely bootstrap, profitable, and growing.

[00:01:00] Andrew Michael: Strategies, tactics, and ideas both together to help your business thrive in the subscription economy. I'm your host, Andrew Michael, and here's today's episode.

[00:01:12] Andrew Michael: Hey, Ziv. Welcome to the show.

[00:01:15] Ziv Peled: Hey, thanks for having me again.

[00:01:17] Andrew Michael: It's great to have you again. For the listeners, Ziv is a longtime friend of the show who previously joined us on episode 50, 100, I think it was 150. And with us today, he's here to share some exciting updates and learnings from the AppsFlyer team, having gone through the last year. He also just arrived back from a trip visiting over 20 customers in three weeks, which represents around 15 million in ARR for the business. So excited to hear about the trip and the learnings there. And he's the chief customer officer at AppsFlyer, the global leader in mobile attribution and marketing analytics. And Ziv has been there over eight years or nine years now, and started out as a senior customer success manager and grown up the ranks, now leading the entire customer team. So during this time, he seems an explosive growth. And my first question for you today is, what was the most interesting place you visited on your most recent travels, and what was the most adventurous thing you ate?

[00:02:08] Ziv Peled: Wow, amazing question. So I've been to Bangalore, Mumbai and Beijing. In my vision, I always wanted to do local customer success events. And I threw the ball to a few partners, a few vendors that I know in Bangalore. And one took it and we were... It was... I even have a small, short video about it. I'm in a panel in the event that this partner did in Bangalore, in one of the rooftops of the VCs in Bangalore. And then, the toughest rain that I've ever seen. Of course, the rain is on the other side of the roof, but we are covered. And then, everyone speaks, and amazing atmosphere, amazing experience. And what really struck me there is that some of the people... We had 60 or 70 people showed up. Some of the people joining were coming over from Hyderabad and Mumbai over flights to join the customer success event. Some said even... I'm trying to be unbelievable. Some said that they came to meet me, but this is exactly what I wanted. I know there's a huge customer success communities in the world. India is always so vivid and active. And that was amazing. I don't remember the name of it, but I ate in one of the... Between meetings, I ate something in the street in India. It's a bun. And in the bun, you have something, mainly potato, which comes from boiling the oil, and it's just super tasty. And it costs 10 cents.

[00:04:02] Andrew Michael: Sounds [inaudible]. I’m just Googling now. Was it called a Vada Pav?

[00:04:07] Ziv Peled: Yes, exactly.

[00:04:09] Andrew Michael: Nice. I worked as well with quite a few people from India and got to explore different things from the cuisine. Obviously, a big fan of curry. But I think there's a lot of other interesting Indian dishes that you don't really get to experience or realize unless you go to and visit the country. It sounds like a very exciting experience as well for you. And intrigued as well a little bit. What led you to go and do this now? Why now? Obviously, the situation out there in the markets, there's a lot of concern for what's going on. And to book a trip like this, visiting 20 customers, what was the goal?

[00:04:43] Ziv Peled: First of all, the goal is to be in the market, to meet the teams. There's also a huge opportunity to get to meet people in China after three and a half years. Also India. I haven't been in India, in the office since 2018. So it's a huge opportunity to connect and meet the team. These are two big targets for me this year. Meet the team and meet customers. And meet customers is, I think, got a little bit more priority now. There's a lot of changes in the market, the financial crisis overall. And I think that on the other side of… for our customers, on the marketing side, they got hit hardest. And then, I think this is the best customer success use case is that we can really help. We can be there for them. We have best practices with benchmarking. We have the know-how of tens of thousands of customers anywhere in the world. And then, it doesn't matter if you are gaming or e-commerce or retail. Then, probably, we've seen some things somewhere that works. Even in this current time, this is exactly what we can provide now.

[00:05:58] Ziv Peled: In addition to that, I think some customers in a better stage and they need us for massive growth. And there's some customers that are trying to do more with less. They also need our help. And there's some customers trying to even recalibrate, decide, "What are we going to do?" And even then, even if they don't go on the paid acquisition route, then we can definitely help in owned media and other initiatives. And after meeting 20 customers, so interesting of all the things that we spoke in all those 20 meetings, and my insights and my learnings, and what I take from it to the teams.

[00:06:38] Andrew Michael: What was the format of these meetings, and how did you structure them? So I think that traveling is quite a bit. And I don't imagine just to go have a one-hour sit down. What was the purpose, and how did you structure these meetings with these companies as you went into them?

[00:06:51] Ziv Peled: Yeah, so I always look to meet enterprises. It can be also medium enterprise, but also definitely large ones. We don't only want to meet the successful, happy cases. We want to blend also customers that are not happy with us or customers that struggle. And then, in those discussions, we want, of course, to get to meet both the team and the decision maker, maybe sometimes also the executive. By the way, one of the biggest things in these visits that I did it together with the COO. So we went together as a front of sales and customer success to understand how can we work better together? We already work very closely together. How can we even work better together? In all the meetings, but in most of the meetings, we work together as very senior executive people coming from AppsFlyer, meeting the customers. So first of all, it's a lot of respect to customers. And then very interesting discussions about all the things that I already mentioned, and building the relationship, understanding what we need to improve, how we can improve it.

[00:08:10] Andrew Michael: And how long was the trip in total?

[00:08:12] Ziv Peled: It wasn't at once. So it was five days in India. Then, I came back with COVID. Got recovered over three days. I had one big meeting in Israel with one of our top customers visiting Israel. And then, I went to another four days in China.

[00:08:29] Andrew Michael: Oh, yeah. And during these meetings themselves, how long is the period? Two, three hours, one hour? You take lunch. When you're splitting up the conversation, is it commercial and then success? How did you structure that specifically as well?

[00:08:46] Ziv Peled: Yeah, so I always look to meet enterprises. It can be also medium enterprise, but also definitely large ones. We don't only want to meet the successful, happy cases. We want to blend also customers that are not happy with us or customers that struggle. And then, in those discussions, we want, of course, to get to meet both the team and the decision maker, maybe sometimes also the executive. By the way, one of the biggest things in these visits that I did it together with the COO. So we went together as a front of sales and customer success to understand how can we work better together? We already work very closely together. How can we even work better together? In all the meetings, but in most of the meetings, we work together as very senior executive people coming from AppsFlyer, meeting the customers. So first of all, it's a lot of respect to customers. And then very interesting discussions about all the things that I already mentioned, and building the relationship, understanding what we need to improve, how we can improve it.

[00:08:10] Andrew Michael: And how long was the trip in total?

[00:08:12] Ziv Peled: It wasn't at once. So it was five days in India. Then, I came back with COVID. Got recovered over three days. I had one big meeting in Israel with one of our top customers visiting Israel. And then, I went to another four days in China.

[00:08:29] Andrew Michael: Oh, yeah. And during these meetings themselves, how long is the period? Two, three hours, one hour? You take lunch. When you're splitting up the conversation, is it commercial and then success? How did you structure that specifically as well?

[00:08:46] Ziv Peled: It's always a minimum of one hour, sometimes two to three hours. Usually in the office, I think that one of the things that I take from my learning in the last four or five years is that I like to come and visit the customer in their office, to meet as many as possible people on their side. And also, I think I said it in one of the episodes, I think it was the second one. I think it was in COVID already. I said that when we come back to meeting customers, it will be so valuable, and we need to be able to use it. I think I was a little bit sensitive about it because I thought, like, I said, customers, some will not want to invite us to the office because of COVID. And then also, I don't know if we will invest in the full extent of the budget. I can tell you that we are going full blown. Customers want us and we want to go full blown. And we need to double down and invest, like the companies that will invest heavily in that will win.

[00:09:54] Andrew Michael: Why do you think it's so important now?

[00:09:56] Ziv Peled: I think many people struggle. Personal perspective, I think it's tough after COVID, and now, with the financial crisis. And I think also, psychologically, I think that people are in self-doubt, not confident about their day-to-day, mainly about the financial crisis. And I think that customer success is not only being a product expert, or an industry expert, or growth partner. It's also something human-to-human. It's meeting you once or twice a week, but I'm meeting you in one of the most important things that you do in your profession. And if I can help you be more professional, be more successful in your job, I think that's what's building the bidirectional investment here. Because in the end, this is what makes the system better. A CSM works with many customers, and then helps one learn from the other, and vice versa. And it's something like a flywheel that helps the CSM grow while they are serving.

[00:11:10] Andrew Michael: And taking the success component beyond just what the pure product value delivers. Yes, as well as how can you make your customers more successful with your knowledge, as well. The other thing I'm interested in is what is one thing that you did extremely well on this trip?

[00:11:24] Ziv Peled: I'll start with my team. I think that the team really planned amazingly. They also executed that very fast. They really placed us in front of the right customers. And then, I think that, I wouldn't say perfect, but was very good, the preparation for the meetings. We came very prepared. We had all the information that we needed, almost like the [inaudible] from yesterday. We knew exactly what we want to get out of the meeting. Not from all, but most, we came very prepared. We were very focused. And I think that when you do that, then also the customer on the other side, they feel it. I think what we need to continue doing is that, "Oh, so now we had meetings two or three weeks ago. Now we need to continue and follow up." And some of these customers are now keeping the relationship on. And again, some on very positive notes, and some I'm fixing and working on very negative notes, and making sure that we deliver more value, or fix some of the values that we couldn't provide so far.

[00:12:33] Andrew Michael: Interesting. What's one thing that you do differently than on the next trip?

[00:12:36] Ziv Peled: Definitely two points, which are pretty new on our side. One is only one year old. Maybe we spoke about earlier in one of the conversations about the theory and methodology. But now, we are doing it, almost with all customers. We're speaking business, desired outcomes. Why did you buy AppsFlyer, etc? And then, I think that blending this with bringing best practices, with bringing opportunities for the customer on the other side, it is not necessarily connected to our product. If it is, it is. But if not, then I'm getting a lot of credits just from doing that. For years now, at least five, we're running benchmarking in QBRs and it drives a huge amount of value. But I think that now customers and this is what I learned in these trips, is that they are looking for these best practices and we can provide it. And then my product is providing so much value. And if I can provide benchmarking, best practices, and being the growth partner of the customer, then I'm able to give them even more value. It probably together will make us almost invincible.

[00:13:59] Andrew Michael: Nice. It's good to see the iterations as well. And key learning is coming out from trips. The thing you mentioned as well a little bit earlier at the start was that you're seeing like marketing teams being hit hardest when it comes to this. You're calling it a recession. I believe it is one as well. I think it hasn't officially announced yet. What are some of the things you're seeing in the markets and how badly do you feel it has been impacted marketing specifically as well?

[00:14:24] Ziv Peled: Yes, I think the financial crisis has hit most of the world significantly. I think that when you look at marketing teams, then definitely we see marketing teams that in our customer side that laid off many people. Sometimes you can even see a full team. And then when I look at marketing budgets for the first time, I even see in the nine digits of last year's marketing budget that were cut by 90 to 100 percent. So some companies are not investing this year. And then I think it's a first of all, it's a good insight. And this is why I'm not even saying the vertical, keeping that very confidential. And by the way, it's not one company or two companies or three companies. It's many companies. So I think it's also an opportunity for some other players in these verticals that can definitely take the advantage and invest heavily in these areas. But yeah, I think I think overall, I think the marketing, that's the I mean, upside almost 10 years. This is definitely the first time I've seen this, even not in COVID. In COVID, maybe you've seen that in travel and only for the first year, all other verticals continue to work very well. But this is the first time I see this severe and cross all verticals.

[00:15:54] Andrew Michael: Yeah, I think it's an insane reaction in the system that's happening at the moment. And I think it's very difficult for others to prepare and plan their specific initiatives. And I think specifically if you're a company that's servicing marketing teams as well, it is a big concern. And I think what you're doing now as well, going out, seeing customers, being a little bit more proactive on that front is one aspect of how do you deal with the situation. What are the ways that your team is now looking to deal with these scenarios? Because a lot of it is out of your control. Like if a company makes a marketing whole marketing team redundancy, what does that do for a product or service like AppsFlyer?

[00:16:32] Ziv Peled: Yeah, so I think that's definitely a severe case. And it's not the majority of the cases. But I think we need to find... I think the playbooks find a new champion in these severe cases. And then the next thing is great that we have a business design outcome. Now we need to reinstate it and reassure it. Is it still the business design outcome? Maybe we need a new one. In other cases where it's not that severe, then you need to understand what is the plan of these customers for the year? Just work the playbook. It's besides identifying what I just said, it's just that just to continue working the regular playbook on the product side is also if a company is now deciding to do more with less on the customer side, what we can do for them, what intelligence, what benchmarking, what best practices, as I said before, what can we now offer them that will give them the value that they need? Now they need the us to brainstorm with them. Now they need us to provide more solutions to show them alternatives, etc. And also help them investing the budget that they do have.

[00:17:49] Andrew Michael: How do you then deal with your team now in a situation like this? I think a lot of them as well must be dealing with stress on their behalf, like seeing all this happening around with their customers. I know in the past we've discussed a little bit about how you measure your team and it's more along the lines of inputs as opposed to outputs. But how are you working with your team to help them manage these moments of crisis now with customers?

[00:18:13] Ziv Peled: It's all about keeping the mental side sane. And it's always something that you fight about, like the balance, work-life balance, how busy they are. Are we able to give them also time to learn? It's all these things that are the top things that are always on my mind about the team. It may be not the best. And I wrote about it also on LinkedIn in the beginning of the year. Maybe not the best timing, but we did for the first time rolled out a complaint for customer success managers. So we are still pushing the input and 25% of the complaint is on activities. But 50% is on GRR and 25% is on upsell bookings in dollars. So definitely this is not easy this year. And the team is coping very well. I was very surprised before India and China, I was also visiting Berlin and London. So I got very a little bit surprised that the majority of the team is very happy to get this complaint, to get the KPIs connected to their activities and outputs, not only inputs.

[00:19:34] Andrew Michael: Nice. That's interesting. Can you talk us a little bit more about that complaint and go a little bit more detail, like what the structure was like, what motivated it as well?

[00:19:42] Ziv Peled: Yes, the structure, as I said, for the most part, for the majority of CSMs, 50% of it is on GRR. 25% of it is on upsell bookings in dollars. And 25% of it is on activities, where the activities are broken to only 3. 10% is on BDOs, 10% is on QBRs and 5% on relationships. If I'm not mistaken, maybe I switched one.

[00:20:13] Andrew Michael: That sort of creates a formula that then works on their compensation at the end of the day. And that's you have a level of base pay plus this is additional commission on the back of it.

[00:20:24] Ziv Peled: This is just on the variable. And then they also have floor and ceiling.

[00:20:31] Andrew Michael: Okay. And how long has this system been rolled out now?

[00:20:34] Ziv Peled: It was rolled out in the beginning of the year.

[00:20:36] Andrew Michael: And what motivated you to do it?

[00:20:39] Ziv Peled: Not having a complaint at the company of 200 people, 400 people, 1000 people. That's great. I think that the company that is getting more mature, officially, we already said over 300 million ARR, even more. I think when you are driving these amounts of revenue, then you also need to have some of the structure. Definitely when you have a team of 240 people in customer success, then you need that structure. It drives some of the motion automatically. I think that when we learn more and push more next quarter and then maybe in 2024, I think that it will automate the majority of the motion of the systems. And we will learn also how to better guide the behavior that we want to drive. So I think if you look at my 10 years as a customer success leader in the entire 10 years, working on motivating and driving behavior, human behavior. And then I did that with so many different tools.

[00:21:55] Ziv Peled: In the beginning, it was lead by example. Then it was by pushing. Then it was by both lead by example and pushing. Now it's blended with everything. So it's like, I think it's now building on layers. And then you have the team leader and then you have the lead by example of the team leader. The majority of lead by example is there. And it's blended with the complaint because everyone wants to achieve and overachieve, etc. And also lots of learnings there. One of the maybe key learning out of that is that like this is something that people want. They want to have a KPI that is connected to a complaint that will tell them. But by the way, we have a dashboard that updates every day. You see your score, you see your percentage and you know your variable. So you know actually in dollars, how much you get every day.

[00:22:50] Andrew Michael: That's great. And like, I love the transparency as well and having like something to work towards. You know exactly your output is a result of your inputs as well at the end of the day. It's also fascinating to hear as well, like you mentioned, over 300 million in ARR. I remember using AppsFlyer for the first time more than 10 years ago, when it was still somewhat of a decent app, it was like at the time, I think probably a lot of us. But if we had to compare it to what we have in the market today, it was just insane to think how over that time, how much this company has grown. And you've been there for most of that journey. So I think that must be something incredibly special to have witnessed over the time. I see we're running up on time today, Ziv. I want to give you a last question. It's like, what would be one piece of wisdom you'd want to share with the audience today from this moment in time now that you're seeing?

[00:23:42] Ziv Peled: I think I said it last time, but it's still on my mind. And still there, one of the most important things for people, it doesn't matter if you're an individual contributor or leader, even a senior leader is always finding the blend between the things that matters and the things that are in your control. And there's an overlay there. I'm not saying don't do anything that only things that are in that matters or only things that are in your control. But I think that like the majority of things that you should work on should be in that overlap. Make sure that you are doing things that are in your control that matters.

[00:24:26] Andrew Michael: I love that. It's a great way to finish off today. And obviously, as always, it's a pleasure having you on the show, Ziv. Thank you so much and hope to hear from you probably in the next 50 episodes, see what new things you've learned and how some of these strategies of going out and visiting customers and working with the teams on complements have worked and your iterations from there. So thanks again for joining. It's been a pleasure having you.

[00:24:59] Andrew Michael: And that's a wrap for the show today with me, Andrew Michael. I really hope you enjoyed it and you're able to pull out something valuable for your business. To keep up to date with CHURN.FM and be notified about new episodes, blog posts and more, subscribe to our mailing list by visiting Churn.fm. Also, don't forget to subscribe to our show on iTunes, Google Play or wherever you listen to your podcast. If you have any feedback, good or bad, I would love to hear from you and you can provide your blunt, direct feedback by sending it to Andrew at CHURN.FM. Lastly, but most importantly, if you enjoyed this episode, please share it and leave a review as it really helps get the word out and grow the community. Thanks again for listening. See you again next week.

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