[00:00:00] Marija: It always comes back to your own personal brand, your reputation and network that you're creating because that's the first asset that you are going to use and that you are tapping into when you're looking for your clients. That's how it works for me.

[00:00:17] Andrew Michael:This is Churn.fm, the podcast for subscription economy pros. Each week we hear how the world's fastest growing companies are tackling churn and using retention to fuel their growth.

[00:00:36] VO: How do you build a habit forming product? We crossed over that magic threshold to negative churn. You need to invest in customer success. It always comes down to retention and engagement. Completely boosts that profitable and growing.

[00:00:49] Andrew Michael: Strategies, tactics and ideas brought together to help your business thrive in the subscription economy. I'm your host, Andrew Michael, and here's today's episode.

[00:01:00] Andrew Michael: Hey, Marija, welcome to the show.

[00:01:02] Marija: Hey, Andrew. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:05] Andrew Michael: It's great to have you. For the listeners, Marija is the director and co-founder of Fractional SaaS, providing customer success leadership for early stage startups. Marija is also the show host of Women in Customer Success. And prior to Fractional SaaS, Marija was a customer led advisor at Catalyst and the director of Customer Success at ClickUp. So my first question for you today, Marija, is did NVIDIA grant you options when you briefly served as an intern in 2012?

[00:01:35] Marija: No.

[00:01:36] Andrew Michael: No.

[00:01:37] Marija: I wish.

[00:01:40] Andrew Michael: Yeah. It was one of the things I was just going through your background and it popped up and it's like, oh, NVIDIA. And then it was like, it was very short stints. I was like, okay, probably not, but would have probably been a good time to get equity in the company at that stage.

[00:01:53] Marija: Absolutely. But you know what? I don't think I got anything then because I arranged my own internship. Like it wasn't even a thing. I was currently, I was in Cambridge at that moment doing music and arts and education. And I just wanted to enter business and just get a feel for it. So when there was a career fair, I found NVIDIA there and I spoke with a lady and I got in touch with her and basically I asked, can you provide some internship for me? And they said, well, we don't have anything, but then they just managed to do something.

[00:02:25] Marija: And for a month I worked in HR department in NVIDIA and it was awesome, but it wasn't like a proper program that I was you know, properly employed or an intern to get something like 15 years after and enjoy my life after that.

[00:02:39] Andrew Michael: Yeah. I mean, it's amazing story though, as well, like hacking your way into an internship as well and to managing the arts. I don't think that's something that's easy to do for most people. And like getting that experience, I think it's normally this chicken and egg when you're getting started with your career is like most times people want experience to get the job. But then they're offering like these jobs that are to gain experience, the ones that you'll be getting experience. So it's good.

[00:03:04] Andrew Michael: And you mentioned as well, like you were in music. And I think that's also something that I noticed, like you had these career transitions that, or maybe they were in parallel, but you were a professional musician for about nine years as well. And I'm curious, like, how did you go from this musician to this interest to business and back to business again? Like what motivated those switches? And then how did you land in customer success?

[00:03:27] Marija: Oh, that's a long question with so much longer answer. And let me try to be shorter. I started playing music when I was six. I played piano and violin and somehow life started revolving around music. And as I grew up in Croatia, that mean, well, that meant that I'm going to one school half a day and then another half of the day I'm spending in music school, almost every single day having loads of different subjects and that's life for years and it was amazing. You're going on different tours with choirs. You're doing lots of performing. Like it's really awesome.

[00:04:04] Marija: And then somehow in the middle of that, I decided that I wanted to study music and I auditioned for music academy while I was still in high school. I got accepted. I passed the test and the day after they called me home and said, "Oh, so sorry, we made a mistake. We shouldn't have accepted you." And I said, like, why? Well, you were too young. We don't accept for this particular program at the age of 17. Just come next day. And anyway, we sorted it out and I said, look, if you got me so far, you didn't say anything in the admission process. What now? And they let me in. So I did like first year of music academy and like fourth year of my high school. It's like doing A levels or something similar all at the same time. And it was cool.

[00:04:50] Marija: So anyway, somehow in that way, music became my life, although I wanted to study journalism and other things, but it was music. And then again, I finished uni, I did my masters in music, and then I came to England just to do one year of English. And during that time, I found a cool program at Cambridge, at University of Cambridge. And I got in, I got accepted, and that was the program of like arts, culture, and education. Again, a little bit of music, but now we were expanding.

[00:05:52] Marija: And that was the first time in my life, I think, that I had that whole idea of a career office and you're going to those career events and there are people who are designated to help you with a career. And when I started the conversation, my first session with a person resulted in the lady asking me, oh, so you've been in music. What would you like to do next? Do you want to go into management consultant or into finance or banking? And I was just looking her thinking, like is that possible? I grew all my life thinking that when you do one thing, that's the thing you do. If you go somewhere else, it almost means you're unsuccessful in that previous field.

[00:06:04] Marija: It was the first time opening my eyes into a different career, which was not only music. I just became really interested. I remember applying for those graduate programs in all sorts of ways, not even knowing what it is. And then as we already mentioned, like in one career fair, I saw NVIDIA and I got myself into an internship. And also, I was doing some research on the value of music and art for the business. And I realized, well, how will I do it when I have no idea about business? I don't know that part. And that's how based on the research, I realized, well, I really want to go into business.

[00:06:47] Marija: By that time, I was already dating my current husband who was only into business and consulting and IT, all that kind of typical one. I felt that I was just listening a lot about it and I was so curious that I wanted a way in. And then as it happened--

[00:07:04] Andrew Michael: To make a switch.

[00:07:05] Marija: Yeah, I just wanted something different. Yeah. And then later on, I kind of put all of my previous skills and what I was doing in a way, in a CV that it looks like I could be good in project management. And that's how I landed the first job in a payroll company and implementation.

[00:07:24] Andrew Michael: Interesting. I want to dive into that, but before we get there, what were you specifically studying in music? Was it vocals? Was it instruments? Like why did you get accepted at 17?

[00:07:37] Marija: That was good. I studied piano and then organ when I was teenager. And I became really a good organist doing loads of those difficult pieces on a big concert organ. So that's what I got accepted later on. And yeah, and also there were lots of choirs and different vocal groups that where I was singing all my life and had loads of tours with it. So like just combination of different stuff.

[00:08:04] Andrew Michael: Yeah. Cause you ended up back up on the end of the mic as well, but just instead doing a podcast and not singing. So it's sort of, so when you say, "Oh, have you got your mic in?" Yeah. I guess I've got my shore in and like, you're speaking very technical in terms of the mic you're both connected.

[00:08:18] Marija: Yeah.

[00:08:19] Andrew Michael: Nice. So obviously like this is completely different experience. And I think this is something like I hear a lot on the show as well. Like most of the guests that I've interviewed from customers access, they come from different, like completely different backgrounds, like I think this is natural as well because CS has not like been like a widely adopted practice and it's only become popular over the last few years now, so these sort of systems and careers are being forged for people. So you sort of really needed to define your own path and your own way of getting there.

[00:08:48] Andrew Michael: I'm curious, you mentioned sort of, you tried to fit in your past experience into something that looked like you could get to roll a job in a company. It made sense. And maybe you could walk us through those steps as well, because I think there's a lot of people out there probably thinking about like this career transition and how would they make it and like maybe they're marketing and they want to move into CS today or maybe they're doing something completely different and want to just break into tech.

[00:09:11] Andrew Michael: And I think a lot of times we don't see these things like if we just in the, in the day to day, but if we take that step back and say, wait a second, like what I'm doing here is actually almost identical to what they're doing here in this process. So I'm keen like how you went about identifying that and putting together the initial CV.

[00:09:29] Marija: Yeah, for that initial CV, I'll be honest, it was a few months or years, a few months for sure. Now what happened was in one sense, I was overqualified for almost anything. Like I had, I think I was doing my PhD at the moment and I had like two undergrads and one or two masters. So in a way, like I was just made to study until then. And I had all of those degrees, but I didn't have a proper work experience. What I had was some kind of internship or volunteering with some media companies. I used to like long time ago, I used to do some blog posts and reviews of some of the classical music.

[00:10:13] Marija: And then I also used to do a lot of youth leadership within the community. When I was 18, I also directed our own little musical production. There were just loads of those little cool things. You wouldn't believe it. I had the first radio show when I was, I don't know, late 18, 19. I was creating a series of little audio shows for one local station. Loads of those non-related things that I was very interested in. Then when I started putting that CV together, it was such a pain because I didn't, I thought I don't have that experience. Like, you know, where have I been in the office or in the business? Nowhere.

[00:10:56] Marija: Okay. Let me see in the youth leadership, what for the things that I had, like what did that mean? And, I started looking into, you know, some jobs for, I think, project coordinator, project manager thinking, what is it there that they need? And then just started kind of matching some of those bullet points and experiences. And then you realize, yes, well, you do have that. I had that, or I had even that course in the uni. Like you end up having much more than what you actually originally think. It's just about translating some of those little stints of experience. But I would say it was difficult at the beginning, just because I felt that, ooh, I have all this education. Now I can go for whichever role.

[00:11:42] Marija: And obviously not. No one wanted me for some whatever manager because I was an entry level. And then it just took me some time to realize all of that. It's like, oh, I can go into project coordination and not being a project manager immediately because that takes time that you need to build your way up. But yeah, it was really just translating those skills in a way that those new job roles were asking for.

[00:12:-6] Andrew Michael: Yeah. And I think that's the biggest, I've missed opportunities for early entrance into the market is like. I think they've been taught to over index on education and there's not been enough emphasis on experience and like gathering those... that experience, however you can in the beginning is really what sets you apart from other candidates to get those entry level roles and to be able to stand out because ultimately like companies that they're not charities for the most part as well. And like, if they can find somebody who has the experience over somebody, they need to come in and train, like they're going to pick the person with the experience like every day, I think of the week.

[00:12:40] Andrew Michael: But yeah, it's also interesting because also recently I had a friend of mine and she was a social worker in her past life and now was like moving into more of a corporate environment, applied for an ops role and was stressing out. She was like, how am I going to make this? Like I've never worked in business before. Like, I was like, what are you talking about? Like your job as a social worker is really to like help organize essentially our society and like the environment which we live in and you're dealing literally with like life and death situations on a daily basis and you're handling these stresses and able to operate budgets and all this sort of thing.

[00:13:11] Andrew Michael: And like, this is exactly what you're going to be doing in an ops role in the company, but just with a lot less pressure and you're not worried that somebody's actually really going to die at the end of it. It's more just like someone might be unhappy. And so I think it's just like being able to see through these things as well. It's also like sometimes important just to ask others for perspectives and get their input as well. Because I'm pretty sure probably some people also pointed out to you like, hey Marija, like you've actually done these things and these things of value and [inaudible]

[00:13:38] Marija: Well, absolutely. It's a composition exercise. Yeah, but you're really right. It's so worth talking to people who are actually doing that job. I don't think that people almost think about it. I think people generally think, well, I can't now just go and approach somebody. I can't bother them. But even in customer success, I had so many of those situations when people from everywhere wanted to enter customer success. And then you speak with them and you see so many of the parallels.

[00:14:06] Marija: And I can guarantee that like if you're interested in particular role, if you reach to a few people who are doing it, they will be happy to give you, you know, 15 minutes of your time and it can mean a world to you to understand what is needed.

[00:14:18] Andrew Michael: Yeah, absolutely. So talk us through then you sort of landed your first couple of roles. And then at some point you made a pivot in towards customer success. First being like a solutions architect at [Sant] and then, which was essentially a customer success role. And then later you also were Intellect, you were at Cisco, Adapt Dynamics. So you've had a few different successions and customer success roles. Like what was it specifically about customer success that attracted you into this career path and what's kept you?

[00:14:49] Marija: So when I landed that famous project coordinator role, I think I was pretty good, pretty quickly and after eight months or so I was bored already. And as I started looking into new things, I saw a job description of customer success manager and that was my first ever seeing the word customer success manager. As I was going through the job description, I think there were lots of points about building long-term customer relationships, helping customers reach their goals, helping them with their outcomes. So many things from my music or education before came into picture and then I realized, well, so many of the things that they are looking for, that's exactly me.

[00:15:435] Marija: And even what I was doing as a project coordinator, like making sure implementation was going smoothly. Like there are so many things that I'm already doing or have done that is so cool. And just reading through that job description, I told myself, this is going to be my career. And then I started to look around and I saw that job for an implementation manager, which was, in a way, similar to what I did as project coordination. You need to have project management skills to run the implementation, but it was essentially onboarding in a customer success department. I landed that job, again, very much based on my project management skills.

[00:16:14] Marija: At that point, and that's where I was exposed to customer success departments, to onboarding, to retention, to what do we do as later-phase customer success managers. So I wasn't a CSM there, but I worked in a team of five people in the whole Europe in customer success. Meaning, we all were just doing it all. You were wearing all sorts of hats. And that's when I started moving straight into customer success, landed next job as a proper CSM, progressed into senior and then did a few other roles.

[00:16:48] Marija: Basically, I progressed from a CSM to director in around four years through different companies. But what kept me? I say that, I know it sounds like a cliche, but in a way I do feel that customer success is my professional home. Like every single aspect of the role is something that naturally comes to me. That is my strength. Okay. There are some parts of it that I needed to brush on some skills a little bit. But most of it is just something that is so normal for me and that's what kept me going. At the moment, I just feel that it's such an amazing role to be in general, helping customers achieve their business goals. There are so many strategic components and consultative components.

[00:17:30] Marija: At the end of the day, it's all people. You think of the audience. It's what I did as a music. I can't even explain it better than say it's almost like embodiment of who I was until that point and what made me as the professional as I am. So that's just customer success. Easy.

[00:17:51] Andrew Michael: Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, I definitely like, I feel that sort of the, like the role and stuff resonating. I don't think there's many people that have that luxury where they can honestly feel like what they're doing is what they should be doing and really, really enjoy it as well. I think like most people are searching for a purpose and it's really like refreshing and like good to hear when. somebody actually feels like they found it and they really enjoy what they do. And it feels natural. I think that's the, you're in a lucky position. We are, I count myself as well in that position, but like speaking to loads of friends and stuff, I don't think there's many out there that sort of like, oh yes, I love what I do. And this is where I want to be.

[00:18:30] Andrew Michael: You've made a transition though, as well now again, and you went from being internal and in-house with the last row, I would say is probably like a click up as director of customer success. And then from my understanding of catalyst, but correct me if I'm wrong, it's not really like an in-house role there. You're more just like a coach to some degree and it's a transition period. And then now you're a full-on consultant as well. Like what motivated that move and how did you get where you are today there?

[00:18:48] Marija: Again, pretty natural. I wanted to go into what people say, portfolio career. I already was doing podcasts. I was doing some, you know, a little bit of individual coaching on site. And I wanted to do a few things that I was really interested in and consulting was just, you know, another side part of it. And I do believe I started working on it. I started building my brand already. I started like develop my own website while I was full-time employed. So I kind of thought this is my next thing. And then when the opportunity presented itself, I just grabbed it and thought, well, that was it now. That's the turning point. And I'm going all in.

[00:19:40] Marija: But yeah, for some time, I really loved that idea of, you know, future of work, portfolio careers, where you can do, you can use your different skills in different ways. And that's when I also started monetizing podcasts and women in customer success and realized, well, that's also one stream of revenue and then consultancies another month. And then I was involved in some coaching and creating courses. I started doing my own course then that went live recently.

[00:20:08] Marija: So there was just a combination of those little things that, again, I was very interested in and that all showed to be something that I can carry on doing. Yes, transition. Again, I can just say it's still too many things probably doing at the same time because I'm not fully focused on each, but maybe that's just who I am and I should accept it.

[00:20:32] Andrew Michael: It's a continuous internal battle I have. But the thing you mentioned is like, there was an opportunity that presented itself. Like what was that opportunity that presented itself that said, okay, this is the right time.

[00:20:43] Marija: There was loads of company movements where just loads of people left loads of leadership at my boss said just big chunk of customer success team and the leadership was let go or left the company. And that was the part when I realized, well, thank you. That's it.

[00:21:02] Andrew Michael: Yeah. So you took like a situation and you made the best of it and really done jumped like headfirst into this next part of your career. I'm keen as well though, like for others thinking about this now and there's obviously a lot of like, I think execs had listened to the show, a lot of latest stage customer success professionals as well and across the board in different roles of marketing and product.

[00:21:26] Andrew Michael: What were your first steps when thinking about like making this transition now to a consultant and obviously you set the website up, but how did you then go about attracting your first clients and how much, I guess, as well did the podcast play a role in that?

[00:21:40] Marija: Well, firstly, I would say podcast played a definitely huge role in the previous years, because in a way I started building that brand without wanting to build it, it just happened as a result of success of the podcast and started getting those, you know, I call it like top 100 CS strategies, whatever. Like those few things happened. Yeah, they just happened. I wasn't working for them, but I had that in a way as a little asset.

[00:22:06] Marija: And then when I went all in, in fairness, I am still not doing it properly. Like I never, I don't think I went on LinkedIn and even said, oh, now I'm a consultant, like I'm available. I should probably do it soon. But it was word of mouth very much like again, tapping to that network that I have created in recent years. So in a way that it always comes back to that your own personal brand, your reputation and network that you're creating, because that's the first asset that you are going to use and that you are tapping into when you're looking for your clients. So that's how it worked for me.

[00:22:44] Andrew Michael: Oh, it worked. Yeah. No, I think it's interesting as well, like the network and not reaching out. I think like you definitely see a lot of people like as they're going out, they announce and like business is open. But definitely. I think the podcast helps in a lot of ways as well. I definitely noticed over the years, people start to reach out, even though it's not intentional and it just naturally happens. I think we discussed before the show as well. I started Churn FM, it was never meant to be monetized. It was never the goal.

[00:23:15] Andrew Michael: And actually, the first time we monetized the show was really when I was raising a seed round for my startup and seven of the eight investors became... Seven of the eight investors in the... I think we're guests on the show of the podcast and so we went from like zero revenue in this thing to like almost a million dollars in a seed check as well from them. And I think these sort of like relationships that you build either through the podcast or through your past experience are really powerful catalysts like to get things going from day one.

[00:23:43] Marija: Can I just mention something for us? I think there's a parallel video as well. I think we were non-intentional about anything that happens next, right?

I don't think I was ever transactional even in the podcast thinking, oh, let me interview you and then you're going to do X by Z for me. That was never the thing. It was just very genuine connection building. And later on, you're just reaping the benefits from all of the connection and genuineness that you have invested before. That's how it happened to me.

[00:24:13] Andrew Michael: 100%. For me, we talked about this as well. Like I, at the beginning, like I wanted to build a new business. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do yet. So I was like, let me build a podcast and build an audience. So like at least I could sell to it was in the end. But in the beginning, it was really just about creating like really good and interesting content that I like myself, officially found this really, but I thought others would find industry. And even like for the round that we raised, like I wasn't pitching the guests at all. Like I was like at the end of the call, because I had their time and they were really smart people, I was like, hey, would you mind like, you have 10, 15 minutes. I'd love to get your feedback on something that I'm building.

[00:24:45] Andrew Michael: And then there would be like, oh, this is actually very interesting. Like, are you raising money? And I was like, no, I'm not raising money at the moment. And, well, if you are, just let me know. I'd be interested when you do. And so it's okay. That was one person said that to people. And then like after like five or six, I was like, maybe we should do this. Maybe we should raise this money. And then it was literally a week from the time I sent the message out afterwards to the time we closed around because like it was unintentional. It was really just like genuine curiosity, trying to learn from these people and gathering feedback.

[00:25:14] Andrew Michael: And I think it paid off like, uh, in dividends. And I think this is like a general story. I hear from a lot of people though, as well, like it starts out to create something like special that people want to get attracted to and continue to like support over time. It really started out of that, like just wanting to do something cool and something that you found interesting and putting something out there and not really like expecting anything back in return and it pays back in surprising ways.

[00:25:41] Marija: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I just wanted to do the podcast because I saw there were not that many women in leadership positions and webinars when I was seeing they were full of men, like they were just manuals. And I just thought, well, if I put the women out there, they can just share their stories and maybe they become role models for others. And the movement, you know, happens and there's just a ripple effect for everything else. Very, you know, very naive thinking at the beginning.

[00:26:11] Andrew Michael: Yeah, absolutely. And I was laughing a little bit when you mentioned sort of those top 100 CS strategists and things like that. It's like, I also probably around year three, I started getting this as well. But it was like, because of the podcast was like covers marketing and sales and success. I was in the CS lists and then I was also in like product marketing lists. And I was in like growth lists.

[00:26:34] Andrew Michael: And I was like, okay, like this is not expected at all because like my, I mean, in my career today, it's been either sort of found or focused on growth. And like I was appearing in all these other different lists, but like, I think these benefit you in ways that's like unexpected as well at the end of the day. And you do have value and you add like a lot of value to the audiences that they listen, so it's, yeah, but never expected or something like looked out for and try to make happen at all. Nice.

[00:27:05] Andrew Michael: And so what's next for you there now? So like you started out music, working your way in hacking interns and project manager roles into success. Now a full-time consultant. It's like, what do you see like in the future? Like how are you going to be continuing to shape your career?

[00:27:21] Marija: In the most amazing and unexpected ways, I think. Just joking. I have no idea what it is. I'm currently in a place that I really love and enjoy, but also

I'm currently in a place where I have my two kids that I, you know, after work from four o'clock onwards, I'm fully, you know, I'm taking kids on activities, making sure I'm raising proper human beings. So I do feel, okay, I may have already some idea of doing something for children. I don't know whether that will become my next career or just a cool project, but yeah, it's definitely a project that will contribute to building character in children. So that's my next thing.

[00:28:04] Andrew Michael: Oh, nice. Very nice. I mean, we heard it here first as well, but yeah, I think that's also definitely like, I mean, it resonates with me. I have two kids now as well. It's exponentially harder having two kids as well. So that's also something like realizing, okay, like what is the best way to spend time now so you can be a good dad or a good parent as well at the end of it. And my wife's actually spoken to me a few different times about things that she's also interested in like the kids space and entrepreneurial itch as well, maybe at some point it'll get scratched.

[00:28:36] Andrew Michael: But yeah, I think it's a special time when you have kids and trying to balance career and what you can and it's a nice luxury, I'd say as well, to have that freedom to be able to like switch off at a certain time and then just dedicate your time to being present in the moment.

[00:28:51] Marija: Well, that was part of the reason also why I went full on into consultancy and making sure that I have to be there for the kids when they need me without needing to be on one call during the same time.

[00:29:03] Andrew Michael: Yeah. Nice. And how did that work in practice as well now for you? Like, and I'm keen as well because I've seen loads of people going through like the catalyst customer success coach. Like what is that program like and how did that work for you when you got started there?

[00:29:22] Marija: Well, that doesn't exist anymore due to Catalyst. I think they had, it was a very interesting program for having two cohorts of like kind of three months of coaching sessions. So in a way it was great because for people like me, it was almost the first tiptoe into coaching, into being a coach to somebody else. For that reason, I think the program was really good. But then in Women in Customer Success, I think the year after we created a mentorship program, which was pretty similar. It was also a cohort of programs where you could apply to become a mentor or a mentee.

[00:30:00] Marija: Seeing loads of feedback that we received from different ladies was just an awesome opportunity to get another perspective from somebody else and build more networks and relationships. So I think that any of those opportunities, whether you're coaching or you're mentoring, which is very similar, can just expand your skill set and your knowledge and your perspectives on either end of the way, either your mentor or mentee.

[00:30:24] Andrew Michael: Amazing. I didn't realize as well yet, hit that up with the Women and Customer Success as well. I think it's a great way to test orders. And so how are you working with customers today then? Like what are the services you're offering at Fractional SaaS?

[00:30:36] Marija: Fractional SaaS typically offer fractional leadership, like from audit of a department to fractional engagement, like a few times a week or whatever that will be to create a strategy and, you know, to set a department in order, coach team members or a leader. So that's like the fractional part. And then it's also training part of it, which means just delivering bespoke training. Very often it's different topics. I think the popular ones are like how to help CSMs be more strategic or more consultative, how to build a business acumen, how to help them run EBRs.

[00:31:14] Marija: Typical things that customer success teams need, especially in recent months when more teams are transitioning towards quota caring, an element of their role. Those skills are incredibly important. And that's also why I created the online course that is called the Revenue CSM. It's really shifting the mindset into being a CSM and understanding why you should be a bit more entrepreneurial and how to recognize opportunities for growth with customers. So those are kind of teams that have been going on for quite a few months now with teams that I come across.

[00:31:56] Andrew Michael: Amazing. It's interesting because before the show we discussed like some of the theme, it would be interesting to discuss some of the themes we've noticed by interviewing so many people in the space and definitely like that aligns with like my conversations that customer success teams now becoming a lot more revenue focused, like owning a quote, owning metric.

[00:32:12] Andrew Michael: And there's definitely this common narrative now I think that's starting to emerge that this is the path forward and where customer success needs to be in order to be able to prove the value to the organization of where they sit. So interesting that you've put together a course on this now as well. And we'll leave that in the show notes for the listeners to check out.

[00:32:32] Andrew Michael: I see we have up on time actually. So I want to ask you one question. I'll ask you a couple of questions, but one question I'll ask every guest is what's one thing that you know today about churn and retention that you wish in you when you got started with your career?

[00:32:46] Marija: It's very often nothing to do with you in customer success. The product has to do its part to help people achieve the result they want to. No matter how much you're smiling as a CSM or not. I mean, jokes aside, but primarily it's a product element.

[00:33:07] Andrew Michael: And CS, the role then is to help product and to shape that product as well with them. Nice. And what do you think? None of the people are talking about.

[00:33:20] Marija: I think they are sometimes talking too much about the processes and operational everything and too little just about, you know, connecting with other customers on a human level, which sometimes is that human factor that that is needed to, you know, get them across the line.

[00:33:38] Andrew Michael: Yeah. All right. Very nice. So on one end, you've got nothing to do with it, but on the other end, like creating those personal connections makes a big difference as well. But yeah, no, definitely. I see that as well. Like a lot of the discussion that's always had, and I think thinking back, like on my experience, the channel attention as well, it's like the companies that I've retained with even in like the hard moments as a business have been the ones that have always been those personal interactions or questions and they don't necessarily even need to be like through conversation on video, but even just like emails and tone and I think all of that makes a big difference and being personal and just remembering we speaking to humans and work with humans at the end of the day.

[00:34:17] Marija: Exactly. When the product works, when you're happy with it, you're not even thinking about retention. It's a normal thing. It's not at the back of your mind at all. When it doesn't work, then you are checking what is your experience with those people who are providing you any type of feedback on the product and support, et cetera. Then you are interested in humans.

[00:34:37] Andrew Michael: Well, Marija, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. And I think that's a good way to end the show today. For the listeners, we'll make sure to leave everything in the show notes that we discussed. And I wish you the best of luck now going forward and shaping your career going forward. And hope to you as well, like if anything emerges out of this next chapter and seeing what you do with the kids as well. Thanks for joining.

[00:35:01] Marija: Thanks for having me.

[00:35:04] Andrew Michael: And that's a wrap for the show today with me, Andrew Michael. I really hope you enjoyed it and you were able to pull out something valuable for your business. To keep up to date with churn.fm and be notified about new episodes, blog posts and more. Subscribe to our mailing list by visiting churn.fm

[00:35:25] Andrew Michael: Also don't forget to subscribe to our show on iTunes, Google Play or wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you have any feedback, good or bad, I would love to hear from you. And you can provide your blunt, direct feedback by sending it to Andrew at churn.fm. Lastly, but most importantly, if you enjoyed this episode, please share it and leave a review as it really helps get the word out and grow the community. Thanks again for listening. See you again next week.

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